Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: hutch42 on January 12, 2019, 04:06:51 pm
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I was interested in finding out about Liquid Springs after seeing the unit for sale in Texas. I was surprised that they cost $12,000-$14,000 and weigh upwards of 400 LBS. These apparently are not designed to be used in any RV's that have a marginal OCCC off the line. Which is a lot of them these days. I suppose big pushers that folks live and travel year round would benefit some.
I pulled up the Liquid Springs web site and found an advertising video that they put out. The first thing they talk about in the video is the average amount of time folks spend in their RV's...3 weeks a year. Then then expound on a rough riding RV for that period of time (3 weeks) and why you should put in Liquid Springs.....for assumption 3 weeks! Right off the bat I thought 3 weeks X 5 years = 15 weeks divided by $14,000 is $933 a week for a better ride! Not the best approach in selling an expensive product I would think.
Oh yes. Take note at the end of the video the lovely ladies sipping wine in the RV while its underway, which of course I personally have NEVER done. :) Dont most states have an open container laws? Not sure you should show that in an ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9QGm6QjqtY
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400 lbs is 2 people. Not a big deal. Sure, if you only drive a little, and sit at a campground the rest of the time, I suspect...they become quite expensive per mile driven.
If you are always on the move from one place to another, then the cost per mile driven drops a lot.
That's why they are optional... It's up to YOU to decide how and where to spend your money.
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Absolutely agree. Folks that spend that kind of money on add on's will certainly be traveling more then 3 weeks a year.
As an old marketing guy it just did not seem the best way to present a product.
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Took a ride in a 2552 with Liquid Springs at the Tampa Supershow today and I must say it was impressive.
I have never driven a 2552 without LS so can't make a direct comparison but I can say that compared to my old Coachmen Class C it was like night and day.
The coach steered true and didn't rock on corners, potholes and even during a little off roading. It truly felt rock solid. Not like the top heavy beast my old rig was.
Expensive? Yes, Effective? Yes!
Asked about the front wheel version for the E450 and though he couldn't estimate the price, the rep said it should be available in about 6 months.
Noticed Tiffin is also jumping on the Liquid Springs bandwagon for the F53 chassis gassers. I believe they need it more than a PC but I think many will find it is a worthwhile upgrade on the Cruisers.
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We have a 2552 with no added suspension or steering items. It doesn't rock on corners or potholes either. The Phoenix Cruisers are much more streamlined than the boxy and top heavy class C's. You're comparing apples to oranges.
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2 Frazzled, thanks for the comment. I would certainly drive a 2552 without LS before laying out that kind of cash for an option.
Unfortunately when I asked about a non LS unit to compare with the only suggestion I got was to ask one of the Thor guys to test drive one of their C's.
Didn't think that would be a relevant comparison so didn't bother.
Should point out that suggestion didn't come from the LS rep or any of the PC factory guys but was from one of the new Campers Inn sales guys that are now selling Phoenix Cruisers.
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Thanks the update. It is nice to see PC is expanding instead of being gobbled up by one of the big boys. That is good ownership and forward thinking.
I am a recent purchaser of PC and have no issues with ride. Most issues are condition of roads, especially here in Michigan. It is a truck.
The 2 or 3 slide PCs are weight constrained so adding LS would compound that item. Other manufactures would be worse due to inferior construction. Like everything else it is good to have options. One man's junk is anothers treasure!
Have a PC day!
Ron
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2 Frazzled, thanks for the comment. I would certainly drive a 2552 without LS before laying out that kind of cash for an option.
Unfortunately when I asked about a non LS unit to compare with the only suggestion I got was to ask one of the Thor guys to test drive one of their C's.
Didn't think that would be a relevant comparison so didn't bother.
Should point out that suggestion didn't come from the LS rep or any of the PC factory guys but was from one of the new Campers Inn sales guys that are now selling Phoenix Cruisers.
Campers Inn is a dealer for Phoenix Cruisers now?? First ive heard. Hope this is not shades of the Campers World dealers. Seems PC would have picked an organization that was represented equally across the country. Campers Inn seems to be located in the east and south east.
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Is the 400 lbs weight mentioned earlier net after removing springs etc. or simply the weight of the liquid springs?
My 2552 (2019) 1' stretch with liquid springs is 100 lbs over the E450 gross rating, front axle 200 lbs over and rear axle 100 lbs under. I weighted it with full water, fuel and propane tanks, holding tanks empty. Otherwise my wife our 70 lb dog and myself were up front and most of the stored items were in the rear part of the PC. My wife and I together are under 350 lbs. The spare tire is mounted on the rear. I don't understand why this would result in the front axle being over weight and the rear axle under weight. The coach is well within the tire load ratings at 80 psi on both axles.
We both love the ride with the liquid springs, so much better than the harsh ride of our 2400 on the E350 Ford.
Any ideas?
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I believe it was the weight of the system before install.
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Are the liquid springs in addition to the leaf springs or whatever I have under my coach of does it replace them? Addition: full product weight needs to be considered. Replacement: difference between the two.
I don't understand the heavier front. The engine is heavy but we were told when we purchased that the weight of the rear tended to teeter-totter and lift the front. Do you carry bottled water up front? Some people carry cases of it and water weighs eight pounds per gallon so it adds up quickly.
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I seriously considered LS on my 3100. The cost was a bit of a deterrent, but not the sole reason for NOT adding LS. I wanted to experience the drive and ride of my PC before I did any chassis modifications, including Safe-T-Plus or Sumo Springs. After driving it home and then a long trip to spend some winter time in Texas, I have decided that I probably will not modify the chassis. I am still investigating Sumo Springs, but the "naked" chassis ride is not bad at all. There is also a popular Ford chassis modification referred to as the "cheap fix", but I have only read of it being done on a class "A"'. Not sure if it is even applicable to the E450 chassis.
Cheers...
Barry T
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Ashby
Here is a 2552 copied from the “2552 Weighed” section of forum. It seems to have capacity you do not have. Some of the LS weight will go toward to front axle. But your front axle weighs more than back. That does not sound right. If you have the weigh ticket perhaps you could post it. Maybe you need to weigh again.
2552 Weighed
Was on a four day trip this past weekend and on the way out I stopped at a truck stop that had a Cat scale. So I got the PC weighted. I had 3/4 tank of fresh water, and LPG, both black and gray tanks were empty, Myself at 240 lbs, my wife, she would say her weight but she is 5'7'' and just slightly over weight and our 120 lb German Shepherd dog in the motorhome while being weighted.
The results are:
Door sticker Cat scale difference
Steer axle 5000 4640 360
Drive axle 9600 8140 1460
Gross 14,500 12,780 1720
Ron
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My 2552 is stretched 1 foot so should be a bit heaver than the numbers you posted. My sticker on the door frame has the same load limits you posted. "CAT" scale report showed:
Front Axle 5200 lb
Rear Axle 9400 lb
Gross 14600 lb
We don't carry heavy items up front (water etc), we do have a Euro Chair.
I wonder how accurate Cat Scales are for light vehicles like our RV's vs 16 wheelers?
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When shocks, etc wear out, they get replaced. What happens when liquid springs wear out? Another $14,000?
RonJ
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Ashby
Cat scales are certified so they should read accurately. The LS only add less than 400 lbs according to vender. The extra foot on your 2552 can’t be more than 100-200 lbs, if that. I don’t see why your PC is so heavy. Never seen a PC over loaded in front. Some of the LS weigh will go to front but not likely that much.
I suggest you try to get PC weighed on each wheel to see the weight distribution. That might provide a clue. Also post a topic in this forum asking anyone else with a stretched 2552 if they could share their weight information. Also you could search this forum for other stretch owners and private message them from this forum to get weight or their input.
Keep us posted on your findings.
Ron
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Having had both a 2551 and a 3100 I found the E-450 (especially the longer wheel based 3100) to be a very decent handling chassis. With that said I always had concerns about being over weight, having weighed the rig a couple of times I found both axles to be very close to max. I just do not understand why nanafacturers including PC do not bite the bullet and move up to the F series chassis and eliminate the worry on the larger coach models? The weight issue was the driving reason why I moved up to the Freightliner M2HD chassis, no worries now.
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NewUsed: New
PurchDate: May 5, 2012
Model: 3100
ModelYear: 2012
Slide: Yes
IntColor: cafe
ExtColor: cafe
Location: New Hampshire
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20150205/News/150209503
It took us 7 days waiting and a 4 yard bucket payloader, before we could get up our 300' driveway in that storm.
GO PATS From an ex pat from Gilford NH.
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I looked long and hard at this system -
https://kelderman.com - as it seems far less intrusive than Liquid Springs and is highly recommended by others. I passed as I thought the $3,500 cost was too much but feel Kelderman is a REAL BARGAIN compared to LS.
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I’d suggest looking long and hard at Surlastic shackles to improve the ride.
http://sulastic.com/truck-shackle-suspension-sa-01 (http://sulastic.com/truck-shackle-suspension-sa-01)
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I looked long and hard at this system -
https://kelderman.com - as it seems far less intrusive than Liquid Springs and is highly recommended by others. I passed as I thought the $3,500 cost was too much but feel Kelderman is a REAL BARGAIN compared to LS.
Looks like 2011 and up E350/450 only, earlier show no matches. Darn it. pyho
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I’d suggest looking long and hard at Surlastic shackles to improve the ride.
http://sulastic.com/truck-shackle-suspension-sa-01 (http://sulastic.com/truck-shackle-suspension-sa-01)
Very interesting, especially at this price point. Do you happen to know anyone who has installed these on a motorhome?
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Regarding the sulastic; from reading other forums a lot depends on weight. Once you get to a certain weight they act like normal shackles.
In the case of the motor home you’d need to know your loaded weight and discuss with the manufacture.
They list them for the 450 but not all motor homes weigh the same. It would be a shame to install them and find as soon
as your loaded they lose the spring load and revert to standard shackles.
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I have the same concerns, but, my search didn’t turn up any motorhome first person experience. There was some chatter on the old Sportsmobile forum concerning use on their B's, nothing on heavy C's, or the F53 Ford chassis. The Sulastic site does indicate several different models, including one specifically for the E450 motorhome.
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I would be very suspicious of "rubber" shackles because as they age, the rubber will become brittle and crack. I have yet to see any "rubber" part on any vehicle that doesn't start to crack and become brittle after being exposed to conditions on the underside of a vehicle for 5 years or more. Yes, I realize the arms are metal, but the shock adsorption part is rubber (natural or synthetic, doesn't matter).
Of course, at that price point, you could change them out every couple of years.
Just remember the old adage, "You get what you pay for."
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Just remember the old adage, "You get what you pay for."
....and its corollary, The more they pay, the more they think they get. :lol I have found that the more people pay for things, the more likely they are to find improvement. If someone spent $400 to improve their ride, they would be looking for an improvement, and will find one from their 'butt sensor'. But not a big one. Powder coat them red, put a lifetime warranty on them and charge $1500, people will report that those improve the ride more than the plain black ones. (nod) That has been my experience in the automotive/truck and golf cart aftermarket.
We used to ALWAYS do one trick anytime we did engine or brake work - move the operators seat ~1/2 - 3/4 inch forward. The operator now feels that brake pedal response is MUCH better, car pulls harder, engine is 'snappier'.... after we install a chrome dress up kit and paint the calipers red. roflol Engine air intake makes it noisier in the cabin! Must be all that HORSEPOWERRRRR!
Sure, scientific devices mounted to the leaf spring show improvement. And who rides on the leaf springs?? :cool Lets see those same measurements up at the operator station.. bet we lose a lot of those dramatic numbers.
(its why I have waited to find a dyno before flashing my chip - I want to see objective results. I have givin up, and might install it anyway. Guess dyno testing motor homes is not a thing around here. Will I see improvement? I sure will be looking hard, as it cost $400. I would like to have the 'hard numbers' from a dyno, put them aside, drive it and see what the 'butt dyno' says. Then read the sheet and see how close I was to the measurements. Keeps me 'honest' to myself, and offsets the influence the wallet has. )
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Volkswagen, I know this is off topic but what chip are you referring to? I installed the 5 star last year and did it mid trip so there would not be any what memory serves issues. I have no clue if it adds any HP but I know with out question it’s worth every penny (to me at least) for the change in shifting points. Typically when going over mountains or even hills it would down shift at the first part of incline and wouldn’t shift back up after the crest till I was well beyond the crest. Now it shifts back immediately and it’s only the really long steep grades like Vail and Breckinridge Colorado that it ever jumps to 4500 + rpm. I was ready to bite the bullet and spend money I hated the thought of to buy a DP. That’s no longer an issue 90% of the time as its now a pleasure to drive. However those that say there is a increase in power can’t prove it by me. Maybe there is maybe there isn’t but there is a wonderful increase in driving pleasure!
I paid 450 by going thru IRV2 with overnight shipping to a campground while driving thru Colorado. I wanted to test it in real world going through the mountains.
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I know... off topic again. I wander around topics like an old dog looking for his poop place. roflol
I also bought the 5star, $400 for open box. I am VERY happy to hear of the shifting improvement. Even here in 'FLATida' on interstate 75's rolling hills it was nearly impossible to keep it in cruise. It would bog, then downshift 2 gears and wind up to 4K+. Off cruise, i could work the throttle to keep it shifting 'right'. I would almost have spent the cash just for trans improvements. The torque and HP increase are welcome, but very difficult to judge from the seat, especially when the shift points are altered! I really prefer changing only one variable at a time, but not an option.
ON topic... boy I wish that Air ride conversion was available for my 2006. WELL proven system.