Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: biglegmax on September 10, 2018, 07:02:11 pm
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Norcold isn't cutting it. We are looking for a replacement AC/DC. I talked to the guys who installed our solar and they have some good things to say about the Vittrifigo. Appears one of their models fits in the same hole with little trim work, and you end up going from +/- 6 cu ft to +/- 8 cu ft. Any thoughts?
Doug
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Why you looking for AC-DC? Don't you have an inverter? I am running just a cheap AC refrig in my class A (2018 Winny Intrigue ) Works great with my solar (800w) and 4 batteries. Plus factor is that refrig has 20% more interior cu In, because it's just electric
Denny and Barb
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Norcold isn't cutting it. We are looking for a replacement AC/DC. I talked to the guys who installed our solar and they have some good things to say about the Vittrifigo. Appears one of their models fits in the same hole with little trim work, and you end up going from +/- 6 cu ft to +/- 8 cu ft. Any thoughts?
Doug
Can you describe the issues with your Norcold? Thanks!
Barry T
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The Vittrifigo gets great reviews on the marine forums but I do not know of anyone who has used it in an RV.
What are your issues with the Norcold and which model do you have?
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The other Marine fridge thats starting to be used in RV's is the Nova-Kool. Company is located in Vancouver BC and is installed in many new cruising boats built in the Northwest. They are compressor fridges running on 12V and 120V. Winnebago and some others have started to use them in some of their models. To date they have performed very well. They burn about 3.5 amps an hour. Winnebago hooks them to a 200 Watt Zamp Solar System (which is standard equipment in models with compressor fridges) and two typical puny no name group 24 batteries at 150 amps total. No issues to date. The downside is that you would have to block off the vents from the inside. Compressor fridges dont need any venting. They are also impervious to extreme angles, unlike absorption fridges.
We have had two Nova-Kools on our boats. The last one ran 24X7 for 48 weeks a year for 12 years. Shut it down for a month to defrost in the winter. Summer and winter fridge temps were 37 degrees and freezer -10 degrees. A really well made unit. The Nova-Kool RFU8200 is a 7.3CF unit that has a cut out size of H-52-7/8 W-23-1/4 D 19-1/2.
http://www.novakool.com/index.htm
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The NovaKool was what I requested when I ordered my rig back in 2016 but Phoenix said they had no contacts there and would only use the Norcold DE0061.
Good point on the venting. They did not do mine correctly and I had to make my own vent covers to seal that area up.
They also put the outlet that supplies 120volt to the refrigerator on the inverter circuit. Which means it never runs on DC but rather through the inverter. Which is not the way it's supposed to work. I re-wired things to move that outlet off the inverter and it now works correctly.
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The Vittrifigo gets great reviews on the marine forums but I do not know of anyone who has used it in an RV.
What are your issues with the Norcold and which model do you have?
I am following this closely because of the LONG lead time the norcold in our coach needs. (It is original AFAIK)
Been a couple times now that we decided 'last minute' to go somewhere. And had to bring a cooler, because the norcold takes hours (many) to get cold from warm storage. When it is cold, works very well. No complaints there. But I would like the ability to have it cooled down and ready in under 8 hrs.
And no, I have not timed how long it takes the Norcold... I really should so I have a hard baseline to compare to.
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Been a couple times now that we decided 'last minute' to go somewhere. And had to bring a cooler, because the norcold takes hours (many) to get cold from warm storage. When it is cold, works very well. No complaints there. But I would like the ability to have it cooled down and ready in under 8 hrs
General opinions on the WBGO owners forum that I am on that the Norcold (absorption fridge) takes 4-6 hours (?) to get to normal operating temps. Folks have been using bags of ice and or small DC fans to help circulate cold air. Lots of owners in deep south say longer in the summer.
JATRAX--WBGO is also using your model Norcold in several of their models. No issues to date.
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I guess I am now a little unsure what the OP meant by "Norcold". My first impression was that he has a Norcold DE0061 which is a compressor model. But on rereading I'm not sure if he means he has a Norcold compressor model that is not working for him or has a regular absorption Norcold that he is unhappy with. We need to get that clarified.
I have the Norcold DE0061 which is a compressor unit that runs on either 12volt DC or 120volt AC. Outside of the install issues that I fixed I am very happy with the unit so far.
But if the OP has the same unit and is unhappy with it I am very curious to what the issues are.
There are DC/AC compressor units made by Vittrifigo, NovaKool and Norcold. Both NovaKool and Vittrifgo are used extensively in marine applications and get good reviews there. As noted above, the Norcold compressor unit is starting to get some use in the RV industry.
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. We have the Norcold absorption, PC standard. Want to repalce it with a AC/DC compressor style.
We do have an inverter, and enough solar to get by with a household type, AC refer, I just think a refer built for marine use would hold up better in the long run, in an RV. Although you can probably buy three households to one marine grade. So maybe cost wise that would make some sense. I do like the 12v option, and actually would be running it most of the time that way since we don't spend much time plugged in or on gen.
The lead time for cooling down an absorption unit was not a huge concern for us. They appear to work OK in moderate outdoor temps. The fluctuation in temps is our main concern. Manual thermometers told us some of our concerns were true about large temperature swings, then we bought an accurite digital remote, which verified this. My wife is a retired county health nurse,( and probably more tuned into this than most), whose job was to respond to food born outbreaks. She has seen too many sick people that didn't need to be just because of poor food handling/ poor refrigeration.
I guess if you only store foods that are not temperature senstive, there will never be a problem. Something that most of us do not think about at home. On a hot trip this summer we gave up and put all perishables in our portable compressor unit, which had less temp swings.
Sounds like any of the three brands of refers mentioned are good ones, I have not looked at models to compare sizes or installation requirements yet.
Doug
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Doug,
I researched all three before buying my rig. If I remember right I liked the Vittrifigo best but it was more expensive and harder to find in stock. The NovaKool was my choice based only on marine forum reviews. But when I proposed it to Phoenix they refused saying they had no experience with the company or any source for one. I could have bought it myself and had them install but they suggested the Norcold DE0061 which has basically the same specs and they could get it from their regular distributor so we went with that.
As I understand it they all use the same Danfoss compressor so the rest is how they insulate / build the box.
Here is the one we have: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/norcold--de-0061-ac-dc-refrigerator-freezer--5388699 If you read the reviews it either gets 5 stars or 1 star. Not sure whether all the 1 stars are justified but there have been some issues. All I can say is I am completely happy with ours. Cools fast and holds temperature wherever we set it.
If you do go with one of these make sure the outlet you plug it into is not on your inverter. If it is it defeats the purpose of having the 12v / 120v system.
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. We have the Norcold absorption, PC standard. Want to repalce it with a AC/DC compressor style.
We do have an inverter, and enough solar to get by with a household type, AC refer, I just think a refer built for marine use would hold up better in the long run, in an RV. Although you can probably buy three households to one marine grade. So maybe cost wise that would make some sense. I do like the 12v option, and actually would be running it most of the time that way since we don't spend much time plugged in or on gen.
I just have to say that when you have an Inverter, it doesn't matter..... Meaning your AC 120 volts is available, weather
your driving or not. Weather your dry camping, or not... It's always there. Just like your 12 VDC. So why buy an expensive
marine refrig when you could get by with just a $130 one that does the same thing? I mean, it's your money, but residential
Refrig's are what Winnebago and other manufactures are going with of late, because of the Norcold lawsuit, (which I am a part of because of my 2350 refrig). Maybe this is the sign of the times for RV refers? I fought, BTW long and hard , to get Winny to change my refrid out to a Norcold absorption, but they could not, cuz they were a dealership of Winny. Long story short, glad I tried the AC only refrig before spending $5000 to have it changed out to a Norcold absorption. With my adding 800 Watts of solar, (maybe overkill), I can with 4 batteries (cheap type 120ah) dry camp to our hearts content. AND... if the refrig dies, it's only $130 to replace. Easily done by myself. AND, not $3000, as with the Norcold absorption.
Just my 2 cents....
Denny and Barb
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General opinions on the WBGO owners forum that I am on that the Norcold (absorption fridge) takes 4-6 hours (?) to get to normal operating temps. Folks have been using bags of ice and or small DC fans to help circulate cold air. Lots of owners in deep south say longer in the summer.
Sounds right. We are 400 miles from 'cant go any further south' deep south, so maybe on the longer side. When the bowl of water in the freezer turns to a bowl of ice Mrs V considers the unit 'ready to use'
I just have to say that when you have an Inverter, it doesn't matter..... Meaning your AC 120 volts is available, weather
your driving or not. Weather your dry camping, or not... It's always there. Just like your 12 VDC. So why buy an expensive
marine refrig when you could get by with just a $130 one that does the same thing? I mean, it's your money, but residential
Refrig's are what Winnebago and other manufactures are going with of late, because of the Norcold lawsuit, (which I am a part of because of my 2350 refrig). Maybe this is the sign of the times for RV refers? I fought, BTW long and hard , to get Winny to change my refrid out to a Norcold absorption, but they could not, cuz they were a dealership of Winny. Long story short, glad I tried the AC only refrig before spending $5000 to have it changed out to a Norcold absorption. With my adding 800 Watts of solar, (maybe overkill), I can with 4 batteries (cheap type 120ah) dry camp to our hearts content. AND... if the refrig dies, it's only $130 to replace. Easily done by myself. AND, not $3000, as with the Norcold absorption.
Just my 2 cents....
Denny and Barb
I am liking your '2 cents' . (nod)
The fluctuation in temps is our main concern. Manual thermometers told us some of our concerns were true about large temperature swings, then we bought an accurite digital remote, which verified this. My wife is a retired county health nurse,( and probably more tuned into this than most), whose job was to respond to food born outbreaks. She has seen too many sick people that didn't need to be just because of poor food handling/ poor refrigeration.
I guess if you only store foods that are not temperature senstive, there will never be a problem. Something that most of us do not think about at home. On a hot trip this summer we gave up and put all perishables in our portable compressor unit, which had less temp swings.
Doug
tymote That is an angle I had not considered, and should have. We replaced a faulty board in our basement fridge for bad temperature regulation after losing food a few times. EXCELLENT point. 2o2
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Denny and Barb, if your $130 refer is of comparable size to the Norcold absorption, could you supply a model number, and amp draw?
I do think cost factors into everything. I understand my inverter is available all the time, but we are all limited to how much capacity we have in our systems. We run our convection oven at times, for fairly long cooking times, and living in the NW solar can be limited. I would hate to be short on battery, and have to run the gen just for the refer.
I'm sure its not the same comparison running an absorption on ac, compared to running a ac only refer, but we found running our absorption refer off the inverter was drawing about 22 amps., if I remember correctly. I'm not a big fan of running gens or open flames down the highway, to each their own though.
$3000 for this refer is outrageous, I know of four that will probably be given away or dumped, if anyone is looking...
Doug
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$3000 for this refer is outrageous,
Curious where this number came from? I was under the impression the absorption units were used in part because they were cheap. Most I have seen were in the $1,000 - $1,500 range. Not cheap but not $3,000 either. I'm sure I am missing something just curious what that is.
The replacement AC/DC compressor units are also in the $1,500 range. A small residential AC only unit will of course be the cheapest by far.
running our absorption refer off the inverter was drawing about 22 amps
That seems a bit high but not impossible. The absorption units work by boiling an ammonia / nitrogen mix. So when on AC the unit is running a heating element like in the hot water tank. Not exactly the best way to make things cold.
I posted someplace on this forum what our power usage is for the Norcold DE0061. I used a meter to record power use. I'll see if I can find that post again.
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Ok, found it:
On my DE0061 the draw is a measured 3amps. Measured over 10 days with nights in the 60's and days in the 90's. I think the peak draw is 5 amps but duty cycle is less than that.
So the average draw is 3 amps per hour or 36 amps over a 12 hour period. For us with the solar panels that is easily replaced during any reasonably sunny day.
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The $3000 figure was posted above, I have not priced them myself. The one compressor unit I have looked into is around $1600.
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Can get the Nova-Kool for around $1500 I think.
Our boat Nova-Kool ran an average of 2.8 (DC) amps for 24 hours. 5 amps at start up, then settled at 3.5 amps running. A constant 20 minutes on 15 minutes off during hot summer months. 15 minutes on and 20 minutes off during shoulder seasons.
Did not have a gen set or solar. Just a "smart Alternator" on engine and 700 amps of 6V batteries. Cruising Boats love extra weight, they ride better. :)
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They also put the outlet that supplies 120volt to the refrigerator on the inverter circuit. Which means it never runs on DC but rather through the inverter. Which is not the way it's supposed to work. I re-wired things to move that outlet off the inverter and it now works correctly.
Jatrax could you elaborate some on this issue? I almost have to assume there is no manual switch on the refer to go between 12v and 120v? I know on our portable compressor refer you can not have both plug wires(12v and 120) plugged into the refer at the same time.
Thanks,
Doug
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For those who are interested in my Residential refrig, Here is a typical unit by Danby. I don't have the model # of mine at present as I'm not close to the motorhome.
The watts used by this unit that I have is 79 watts. The price of the absorption refrig to replace my Danby was quoted to me by the dealer. And that was without installation. Thinking one could buy refrig such as that cheaper somewhere else. But that was the quote I got. Installation was another 1500 because they would have to cut hole in side for venting, ETC.
https://www.compactappliance.com/danby-7-3-cu-ft-energy-star-apartment-refrigerator/DPF073C1B.htmlen
Hope this helps.
Denny and Barb
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I almost have to assume there is no manual switch on the refer to go between 12v and 120v?
The DE0061 is plugged into a 120 volt receptacle and is wired directly to the 12 volt system of the coach. There is no manual switch. When it detects power on the 120 circuit it uses that, otherwise it runs off the 12 volt coach power.
In my case they wired that outlet to the inverter, I assume because they thought it worked like a residential refrigerator and needed to be on the coach inverter. So it used inverter power rather than coach 12 volt power. I swapped the circuits around so that receptacle is no longer on the inverter and managed to put a different outlet that I wanted on the inverter on it instead. Win win.
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Jatrax, thanks, good to know. I assumed you could select power options with a switch. I guess thats one good thing about this absorption refer.
Doug
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I assumed you could select power options with a switch.
While not as elegant as a switch on the refrigerator it would be quite easy to install a switch on the 120v receptacle. That could be done either at the panel box (though all receptacles on that circuit would be affected) or at the refrigerator itself by bringing out a switch leg to the cabinet face.
Turning OFF the 120v power makes the refrigerator switch automatically to 12 volt power. In real world use I'm not sure I see any advantage to having a switch. The normal use case would be exactly the way it works normally: 120 if available and 12 if 120 is not available. On an absorption unit there is a clear advantage to being able to select the power source under some situations.
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I completely agree with your assessment on the switch. In our case we rarely have our inverter on, so most of the time it would run on 12v. I do wonder if we could get by having the Microwave/ oven and refer start up at the same time though.
Doug
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I do wonder if we could get by having the Microwave/ oven and refer start up at the same time though.
I do not think that should be an issue as the refrigerator is max 5amps and does not have any noticeable 'surge' when starting. But I'm on a 50 amp coach so I never even think about things like that.
On a 30amp coach I still think it would be no problem. I know air conditioner / microwave at the same time is potentially an issue but the DE0061 just does not use that much power.
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The Danby 110V fridge now being used by WBGO in their Fuse models is a 4.7 CF model DCR047A1BBSL. The online retail price is as low as $235. It is run through a 1000W inverter 100% of the time. The AC amp draw is 1.3 amps which translates to 14 amps DC using a 85% efficient inverter. However if you use the national energy star rating for it (333 KWH yearly consumption).......the draw is only 3.8-4.0 DC amps?? The Fuse comes standard with a Zamp 200 watt solar system. In theory it sounds doable.
Probably not the most user friendly or efficient way of doing things. The Fuse only uses group 24 batteries. I would guess that the life cycle would be reduced substantially. The plus side for WBGO is they save $1000 over a compressor or even good absorption fridge. Its basically a throw away fridge. They do not repair or replace anything, just pop a new one in. The downside is the yet unknown wear and tear on the inverter and batteries running on 110V off the inverter and house bank all the time.
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The Danby 110V fridge now being used by WBGO in their Fuse models is a 4.7 CF model DCR047A1BBSL. The online retail price is as low as $235. It is run through a 1000W inverter 100% of the time. The AC amp draw is 1.3 amps which translates to 14 amps DC using a 85% efficient inverter. However if you use the national energy star rating for it (333 KWH yearly consumption).......the draw is only 3.8-4.0 DC amps?? The Fuse comes standard with a Zamp 200 watt solar system. In theory it sounds doable.
Probably not the most user friendly or efficient way of doing things. The Fuse only uses group 24 batteries. I would guess that the life cycle would be reduced substantially. The plus side for WBGO is they save $1000 over a compressor or even good absorption fridge. Its basically a throw away fridge. They do not repair or replace anything, just pop a new one in. The downside is the yet unknown wear and tear on the inverter and batteries running on 110V off the inverter and house bank all the time.
This system should work very well. Yes, (look at my posting above). I fought WBGO to please install absorption refrig in my Intent. But dealer could not legally do that. Had to be a farmed out situation, to a Camping World or such. So I kept the Danby. Am so far very happy with this arrangement. I use 4 grp28 batteries and 800 watts solar. (I know this is kind of an overkill of 80, but my summer camping in the "tree" canopy of Wisconsin, I need all the help I can get!)
And since I'm an electrical engineer, people, people, please don't be concerned with duty cycle of an "inverter". My 1000 watt inverter is just playing with the 79 watts my Danby refrig requires. And your batteries... ??? Not a concern ether, if you have any solar power (watts) mounted on your roof. Batteries need to be exercised and groomed. That means your "solar charge controller" AND, your "coach" Converter should be at the 4 stage variety. If it is not, the longevity of your batteries are probably shortened. r
Again,
Just my 2 cents worth.
Denny and Barb
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This is all interesting reading. I appreciate all the feedback. Like most of us, we start researching on the interweb, read it all, scratch our heads,then flip a coin....
One post on a marine review caught my attention though. Something like this,, if you have AC, you have DC, why worry about the option to power your refer on AC? With a good battery bank, and good solar, I'm beginning to think if I replace my current refer I'll just wire it for DC and not worry about AC. Although it would be simple to install an AC switch.
I was not clear about the start up requirements of the microwave/oven and refer together on shore/gen power. I was curious to know if they could start up together on the inverter. I'm obviously electrically challenged.... to say the least.
Nice boat Hutch,, I always wanted to retire in one like yours and get back to SE AK. But the wife gets seasick..!!
Doug
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BIGLEGMAX
Nordic Tugs are like Phoenix Cruisers. Small companies, semi custom builds, quality material and workmanship Nordic only builds about 25 a year these days. In the heydays of the of the late 90's early 20's they were putting out about 40-50 a year. Tough to compete with the off shore builders in terms of cost. This one was my second Nordic, a 33' owned it for 14 years. Sold it last year. Never made it to SE, Bella Bella BC about as far north as we went.
I also get confused as to what power (AC or DC) is best to run a compressor fridge. Our Nova-Kool ran on both. It was not wired directly to the house bank, but through the DC/AC Panels and switch's. If both AC & DC switches were on it would switch to AC if you were plugged in, and back to DC when unplugged. Never noticed a performance difference on either mode. Never had solar or gen set. We had a honking big 720 amp house bank, smart alternator, and Xantrex charger/inverter. Only time we had a need for inverter was when my wife wanted to dry her hair. I have very little, so no problem. Everything else ran of either DC, Propane, or Diesel.
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Hutch,
I have been away from boats a long time, but I do know the Nordic brand. I can't believe you mentioned Bella Bella, that was our last stop, on our last trip south. We were totally burned out after a long season, my partner says" lets spend the last night in Bella Bella", I had no idea what to expect... not much really, just a great hot spring in the bay, and peace, and maybe a vodka, I hope you enjoyed the hot springs too.
Every time I question RV's, I go back to marine use. The wheel does not have to be reinvented, the directions are posted, I only wish they would be read, and followed.
Doug
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Very interesting reading. I am manually changing the mode switch to AC when parked with shore power, & LP when moving. The Auto position does not appear to work. Bad board?
We rerouted our trip home from Duluth to Elkhart to have the Norcold absorption worked on. From watching the tech, it appears Phoenix did not install insulation above the fridge or install a baffle to direct the heat off the top to the exterior vent. We noticed a very slight increase in performance. On a setting of 9, we barely manage to keep 38°-40° in the lower compartment with outside air temps of 60°-75°.
The only time we use the inverter is power a small crock pot while driving. (Thanks for the tip Mrs Robbins, Earl's wife!)
Steve
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Denny & Barb
How long have you been using the Danby fridge. Any issues with it so far?
Hutch
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Well in 2 weeks I get to see how long it takes my Norcold that will run on some kind of electric or lp gas , will take to get up to cold. Before this it was never off except to defrost. And it would get cold enough to freeze things in refrig. It is 2016 2910T model RV. I just hope it works... My handyman went to heaven so he is in real over see-er mode... and now I have to keep things running and pray a lot maybe.
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Denny & Barb
How long have you been using the Danby fridge. Any issues with it so far?
Hutch
Hutch, only had the Danby since middle of April. So far no issues. Works like the frig in our house. Gets really cold fast. Found running it on #4.5 of possible 8 or 9, is plenty cold.
Denny and Barb