Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: WillieontheRoad on September 02, 2018, 12:39:49 pm
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Howdy PC Experts,
This year we purchased a PC 2100 and have been surviving without a dinghy car.
However, we are beginning to see that we might need to pull one if we go any longer.
We are only looking at what would be a second car used only to shop and sightsee, not our primary vehicle.
Can you give us any suggestions for the best 2-3,000lb dinghy cars? Auto trans. Reasons?
Thanks,
Alan and Joan
Austin, TX
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https://images.goodsam.com/newmotorhome/towguides/2018DinghyGuide.pdf
One hazard of asking the question you asked is that there are too many variables. Car makers change things every year and even within the model year different engines and transmissions might or might not be towable. But you will still get people posting "I tow a xyz" and it's great. I'm sure it is. But unless they specify the model year and engine and transmission it is not a good answer.
The source listed above is good comprehensive guide. But all listings should be checked by actually reading the owners manual of the specific vehicle you are purchasing.
I bought a 2017 Jeep Cherokee to tow. And despite both the salesperson and the sales manager insisting that I could tow it "no problem it's a Jeep" it is NOT towable as is. The owner's manual clearly states that but neither the sales person or the sales manager bothered to actually check the manual before telling me it was fine. <end of rant>
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I'm also in the market for a small dinghy. I've done a ton of research and have settled on a 2019 Kia Soul base with manual transmission. It light, reasonably spacious, inexpensive and has better than average reliability. Did I mention it's cheap!!!!!!
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Mazda Miata 6 speed transmission. Only 2000 lbs and fun to drive. Only negative is not much space for storage.
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http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides/
Don't know how to make this a clicky but this guide lists towables back to 2000 model year. Might be useful since you're searching for a used vehicle. Remember, you'll have additional expenses to prepare the car for towing. Four down requires a baseplate, tow bar, lights and a braking system. Other option is a tow dolly and lights. You won't be able to back up so fuel stops need to be planned so you can enter and exit without backing. You may want to try renting at your destination or Uber or Lyft. Safe Travels!
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Flat towing a 2012 GMC Terrain.
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Scion IQ
Any problems? Seems like a great alternative to Smart, but I thought Toyota said it can't be towed. Remco says you have to use a tow dolly.
By the way, Remco's a great source: http://www.remcoindustries.com/Towing/Store.php
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Flat towing 2015 Fiat 500 Sport manual 5 speed.
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I tow 4 down a 2014 smart car, 1800 lbs , so no aux brake needed. The problem we have is that we like to hike and many times there are a few miles of rough road to the trail head that we can’t make due to low clearance. It’s a great little city car that is easy to tow and we get 50 plus miles to the gallon putting along on the back roads but it’s not filling all our rv needs. Really depends on your needs I guess, there are tons of options.
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In most states....maybe all states....you don't need secondary braking on a trailer or tow vehicle that weighs less than 2000 pounds. I think the Smart car is the only vehicle below that weight. Not having secondary braking makes matters more simple and more affordable.
With that said, we tow a 3700 pound 2006 Jeep Liberty 4x4. With secondary braking on our PC and that tow vehicle for 9 years now, it has been working reliably well. I did once had a failure-to-operate issue on a trip that I resolved with a can of WD-40 on the main solenoid located under the tow vehicle's driver seat. A little lube did the trick.
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I had decided that the Smart ForTwo was the closest thing to a purpose-built toad ever designed. It seemed perfect. So when towing my Ranger didn't work out, I started looking for a Smart. I finally found a nice little 2012 Passion with 85K miles for $4000.
And now I'm starting to understand why these things aren't more popular.
It started with the transmission. Part of the reason they are towable is that instead of a traditional automatic transmission, they have a standard transmission with a computer that does the shifting. Wouldn't you know it, the gear indicator started blinking on the way home from the purchase. So I took it to the dealership the next day. $200 just to look at it, I guess because it's a Mercedes. But good news! The transmission computer just needed a software update. They didn't even charge me (other than the $200, of course).
But then the guy informed me that they had no record of my car every being in for its 60K checkup. And that's a big deal because these cars have solid lifters, which require adjustment, just like an old VW. I was told that my car would likely self-destruct at any moment if I didn't get this done right way. OK, how much, I asked. $2,000! Why? Because they have to remove the entire engine from the car to do it! But good news! Since it's included in the 60K service, they'd throw in new belts and spark plugs!
I said for that kind of money, I'd just have to take my chances. (I later discovered on the smart car forum that hardly anybody actually does the valve adjustment, and it's only a couple of hundred if I don't let a Mercedes dealer do it.)
So then I asked how much for a spare key. A mere $289.18! But if I wanted it "programmed" to actually work, that's another $190! $479 for a key! Who knew that 12% of the entire value of a 2012 Smart car is on the key chain? I was afraid to ask how much for a set of tires. Good thing mine are in pretty good shape, but I bet you can't get a set of those at Costco.
Oh, well, I'm committed now. It's just disheartening that the most expensive single item I need to outfit the car for towing is the spare key!
I thought I'd pass this along for anyone considering a Smart for a toad. Be aware, it's a Mercedes. You're going to be paying luxury car prices for anything you need from the dealer for your little economy car. I wish I'd thought of that. And for sure, don't let anyone sell you a car with only one key!
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http://www.motorhome.com/top-stories/8-affordable-dinghy-vehicles/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GSN19993_09182018
http://www.motorhome.com/top-stories/top-10-most-popular-dinghy-vehicles/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MHN19985_09122018
http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides
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Be aware, it's a Mercedes.
We started our RV search looking at Sprinter based models. After research and reading a lot on line we decided that Ford was a much better choice for our budget. :) Mercedes makes nice stuff but they are really, really proud of the little emblem on the front. roflol
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Be aware, it's a Mercedes.
We started our RV search looking at Sprinter based models. After research and reading a lot on line we decided that Ford was a much better choice for our budget. :) Mercedes makes nice stuff but they are really, really proud of the little emblem on the front. roflol
I agree with you John.
There are very few automakers that have consistent quality control challenges, and I feel Ford is "not" one of them. Ford makes a consistently good product, especially their E-Series.
On the other hand, I don't have a warm feeling about Chrysler products...never did since my earliest driving days thru to the Jeep Liberty that my wife loves and I despise so much. I hate that I have to always fix things that should never get broken in the first place. It's got only 75,000 miles on it and it is garaged all the time, but so many little things go bad like it has over 200,000 miles on it. I could never recommend a Chrysler product for that reason. Too much nickel and dime stuff. If I paid someone to repair them, I could have bought a new vehicle with that money.
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Ron, we’re just getting back from a 2 month road trip covering about 6000 miles. The vehicle I saw being towed the most by far was jeep and the majority are wranglers . We’re looking at purchasing one however I’m not completely sold on anything sold by Chrysler . I know many love them but my experience with dodge years ago left me with a bad taste. So I’m not sure how I should/will proceed. All this said every person I spoke with was very happy with their jeep. Then again when they cost what they do you almost feel you have to love it.
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Quick story on loving a car: An acquaintance had just had her car towed home a long distance for the third time in about a month. I asked why they didn't get a new car instead of pouring massive amounts of money into the old one - again. Her answer was that the tow truck driver (a knowledgeable authority) told her that he never saw her type of car at the side car the road... Of course not, he had them hooked to the back of his truck like hers was.
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Best small dingy ever made? Suzuki (Chevy/Geo) Tracker/Sidekick/Vitara 4x4 with standard transmission. Reliable, convertible, fun to drive, high road clearance, good for off-road exploring, and seats four. Weighs almost as little as a Smart car -- 2300 lbs. Plus, it has a conventional rear-wheel drive layout that's easy to work on.
But good luck finding one. I looked for over a year. The few I saw that hadn't been sitting on a deer lease for 10 years were priced as high as a late model Jeep -- way too much for a car that I didn't plan to drive every day. If you go looking, the year they added the 7 digit odometer was 1996. And they got much heavier in 1999.
With all the perennial interest in off-roading and Jeep's, it's hard to understand why Suzuki/Chevy quit making them. But the 1999 model basically destroyed the concept of a small jeep by turning the Tracker into yet another SUV, so it isn't hard to understand why people quit buying them.
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Best small dingy ever made? Suzuki (Chevy/Geo) Tracker/Sidekick/Vitara 4x4 with standard transmission. Reliable, convertible, fun to drive, high road clearance, good for off-road exploring, and seats four. Weighs almost as little as a Smart car -- 2300 lbs. Plus, it has a conventional rear-wheel drive layout that's easy to work on.
But good luck finding one. I looked for over a year. The few I saw that hadn't been sitting on a deer lease for 10 years were priced as high as a late model Jeep -- way too much for a car that I didn't plan to drive every day. If you go looking, the year they added the 7 digit odometer was 1996. And they got much heavier in 1999.
With all the perennial interest in off-roading and Jeep's, it's hard to understand why Suzuki/Chevy quit making them. But the 1999 model basically destroyed the concept of a small jeep by turning the Tracker into yet another SUV, so it isn't hard to understand why people quit buying them.
I just sold my 94 year old mother's cream puff 2002 Chevy Tracker 4x4 4-door hard-top ZR2 version with only 22,000 miles. It looked new inside and out. I tried my best to get more for it, but eventually lowered my expectations and settled for $5000.
It was a very nice vehicle. I would have kept it except my wife's love for her Liberty. I could not keep them both.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1761/43048598571_d25c325cbf_z.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1809/42998684552_c0a993fa35_z.jpg)
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Ford makes a consistently good product, especially their E-Series.
My first car was a Plymouth Gran Fury police interceptor bought at auction for $800. Loved that car. Next bought a brand new 1979 F-150 upon graduation from college. Sold that to my brother in 1982 or '83. He still has it and it still runs. Not sure if any of the body is still original though. roflol
Had an assortment of Fords and Jeeps over the years and depending on management or ownership at the time had good or not so good experiences.
Bought a Toyota Prius in 2005 and a Toyota Highlander in 2011. The Highlander is by far the best vehicle I have ever owned. 90k on it now and never a single issue of any kind. When we started looking for a toad Toyota was our first choice but nothing available that would tow so we ended up with a new Jeep Cherokee. The Cherokee is nice and makes a nice toad but for daily driving I still prefer the Toyota.
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I learned to drive on my father's 1967 Plymouth Fury-I (318 w/2-BBL carb). My 2nd car experience was my first car purchased just before marriage, a 7 year old 1971 Oldsmobile Delta-88 (455 /w2-BBL carb). Both vehicles were big boats. My 3rd car (our 1st car married) was a 1 year old 1979 Phymouth Horizon, convinced by Lee Iacocca it was a good car. But it was a disaster of a car. 9 months later we sold it and bought a new 1981 Toyota Corolla SR5 liftback and owned it for 17 years. My next Chrysler was our 2006 Liberty bought used in 2009. I think Irene knows better not to bring up another Chrysler product to me. When we are through with it, I will be so-done with the company.
Our 2006 Liberty I replaced all these things with 75,000 miles of wear and tear and no children or pets during the years. It was extremely clean, like brand new when we bought it 3 years old with 29,000 miles.
1 - driver's door window regulator
1 - passenger door window regulator
1 passenger rear window regulator
2 - driver rear passenger window regulators
1 - a/c pressure regulator switch
1 - serpentine belt idler arm assembly
2 - heater blower motor speed control resistors
1 - rear hatch electric-throw release mechanism
Today..... radio volume has a mind of it's own at times
We had a cloth interior that a drop of water would stain it badly. After cleaning the cloth twice in hopes to create one consistently colored stain, I resorted to replacing the cloth interior with an aftermarket leather interior.
The plastic interior panels damage extremely easy. The entire interior looks so beat up for no good reason. The trunk area looks like we haul loose rocks often.
When I wired the vehicle for towing, I learned that Chrysler uses a very fine delicate wire for all it's harnesses rear of the dash board. They route all the rear-most wires between the rear bumper and frame. I can see that a light tap in the rear will damage the wire harness causing all kinds of electrical trouble.
This will be my last Chrysler.
Sorry for the rampage. My apologies to you with Chryslers and love them.
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Sorry for the rampage. My apologies to you with Chryslers and love them.
I guess the only consolation is that Jeep is now a Fiat not a Chrysler. :):)
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Jeep is now fiat? Not a move up that’s for sure. Jeep is out for us now after finding the wrangler hard top has no insulation and it’s much to hot where we live for that.
So it’s back to the subject board. I thought of Toyota Tacoma but they are not towable 4 fown with an auto transmission.
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Jeep is now fiat? Not a move up that’s for sure. Jeep is out for us now after finding the wrangler hard top has no insulation and it’s much to hot where we live for that.
So it’s back to the subject board. I thought of Toyota Tacoma but they are not towable 4 fown with an auto transmission.
A Jeep is, well, a Jeep! Bought this Jeep new in 1999. Sold it with 217,000 miles on it, plus it had over 100,000 additional towed miles. This pic was in Bryce Canyon. I sold it because I wanted more comfort, but considering a 4-door now. Jeeps are not for the faint of heart :cool.
Cheers :)(:
Barry T
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Jeep is now fiat? Not a move up that’s for sure. Jeep is out for us now after finding the wrangler hard top has no insulation and it’s much to hot where we live for that.
So it’s back to the subject board. I thought of Toyota Tacoma but they are not towable 4 fown with an auto transmission.
By the way, Joseph, buy the Jeep and line the non-insulated top with Reflectix! ;)
Barry T
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We just took a ride in my brother in laws 4 door wrangler and it rides too
rough for my liking. That and he advised on the it’s a very hot vehicle as well. I don’t think it’s an option for us.
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Still waiting for delivery of my new PC (close to the end of the year), but wanted to get out in front with a towable vehicle. I love my top line Santa Fe--it's just a great road car--but it would require a tow dolly and I didn't want to get into that. There are a variety of options that can be flat towed of course (some more simply than others), but fairly extensive research pointed to various Jeeps as by far the most common. I ended up sending private messages to several folks on forums that are towing Jeeps asking for their experience, and received pretty much universal praise for the later model Cherokee Trailhawks. Received really no negative feedback, and several specific positive recommendations--not only as a tow vehicle, but also as just a nice driver. In general, the owners consensus seemed to be that they really like what Jeep has produced with the Cherokee Trailhawk over the last 2-3 years.
Based on that effort, I just traded my Santa Fe :'( for a new Trailhawk that will be in this next week; I will be glad to provide an honest assessment of how that works out, but unfortunately it's still going to be a while.
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We have towed Jeep Wranglers for many years and used them up in the boonies of the Rockies and down to the beaches of Padre Island, Texas. Getting a little older now and enjoy our creature comforts so bought a Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. One of the best cars we have ever owned. We can still go off road, tows 4 down, easy to hook uo. A little heavy (4000#) but not a problem. We looked hard at the 4 door Wranglers but had problems getting the old legs over the door sills. Have not had a lick of trouble with the Trailhawk and in the cold weather, those heated seats are wonderful. heartshower
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We just took a ride in my brother in laws 4 door wrangler and it rides too
rough for my liking. That and he advised on the it’s a very hot vehicle as well. I don’t think it’s an option for us.
We fulltimed for 10 years, our 1999 Jeep Wrangler was our only car along with a Harley Davidson motorcycle. As I previously mentioned, it served us well as a toad. When we got off the road and bought a real house, I was ready for something not so rough riding and a little quieter; in other words, something more comfortable. Still needing a toad, I bought a GMC Terrain. It is a great toad and an excellent daily driver. My wife loves Jeeps and wants another one. We will see what happens.
BTW, I take delivery of my 3100 this upcoming Thursday. Really looking forward to it.
Cheers....
Barry T
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Townes, the self imposed issue we’re having is we want to go down to one vehicle and use it as our dinghy as well. The Jeep just won’t work in that format . If it was just for a dinghy we’d buy a used two door wrangler. So our search for a all in one continues
Also now understanding fiat owns jeep I would never consider a new Jeep.
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Based on that effort, I just traded my Santa Fe :'( for a new Trailhawk that will be in this next week; I will be glad to provide an honest assessment of how that works out, but unfortunately it's still going to be a while.
Be advised the Jeep Cherokee is NOT towable 4 down as it is sold unless you get the manual transmission. The dealer will tell you it is but they are wrong. After I bought mine, (Cherokee but not Trail Hawk), I found out that it needed a special add on wiring harness to be able to safely tow. The dealer wanted $1,700 extra to install it.
If you got the manual transmission your should be good and never mind. If you got the automatic please search "Jeep death wobble".
http://www.forestriverforums.com/forums/f12/jeep-cherokee-death-wobble-123288.html
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If you got the manual transmission your should be good and never mind. If you got the automatic please search "Jeep death wobble".
http://www.forestriverforums.com/forums/f12/jeep-cherokee-death-wobble-123288.html
How does the transmission affect the 'death wobble' ?
Death wobble is a rapid oscillation in your steering components and results in your steering wheel moving very quickly from side to side. It has earned this name because it feels like your Wrangler is literally falling apart and that letting go of the steering wheel can lead to a very bad day. When this occurs it becomes extremely difficult to control your Wrangler and the only way to get it to stop is by slowing down; sometimes it is necessary to come to a complete stop.
There was an amusing statement in the thread you linked..
Sounds like they had to come up with a "wobble mitigation algorithm" as a direct response to an "engineering oooops algorithm"
roflol
link - http://www.forestriverforums.com/forums/f12/jeep-cherokee-death-wobble-123288-3.html#post1375719
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The description of a death wobble is accurate. I’ve never experienced it in a car but have on two diff brands of motorcycles. Hands to light on the bars and if the wobble started it was violent. If you applied brakes you were going down. I had it on a Harley and on a Honda gold wing. If a vehicle does it I can believe it feels as if it’s coming apart.
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How does the transmission affect the 'death wobble' ?
I may have misspoke on that part, not sure. And it might be a model year thing as well with the manual transmission having a different steering system. Or maybe I remembered wrong. I know you had to have the "Active Drive II" transmission or the manual transmission. "Active Drive I" does not work.
The death wobble in the Jeep Cherokee is caused by the front wheels starting to wobble (when towed) because the power steering is electric and when off does not keep the wheels stiff enough. The fix has been to install a wiring harness, switch and additional fuse to power the steering when towing. The problem is that this is a battery drain and unless you have a charge wire to your battery from the tow vehicle the toad battery will quickly drain.
Bottom line: the Jeep Cherokee (with some transmissions) can be towed 4 down if the proper modifications are made. If they are not installed then you risk a dangerous situation.
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How does the transmission affect the 'death wobble' ?
I may have misspoke on that part, not sure. And it might be a model year thing as well with the manual transmission having a different steering system. Or maybe I remembered wrong. I know you had to have the "Active Drive II" transmission or the manual transmission. "Active Drive I" does not work.
The death wobble in the Jeep Cherokee is caused by the front wheels starting to wobble (when towed) because the power steering is electric and when off does not keep the wheels stiff enough. The fix has been to install a wiring harness, switch and additional fuse to power the steering when towing. The problem is that this is a battery drain and unless you have a charge wire to your battery from the tow vehicle the toad battery will quickly drain.
Bottom line: the Jeep Cherokee (with some transmissions) can be towed 4 down if the proper modifications are made. If they are not installed then you risk a dangerous situation.
jatrax is on the money with the above information.
After I decided to get out in front of my upcoming PC delivery by acquiring a 4-down towable vehicle, I spent considerable time researching options--primarily focused on Jeeps. Bottom line is that to tow 4-down, you need to be able to disconnect the driveline(s) from the powertrain. With a manual transmission of course, the neutral shift position does the trick. With Jeep automatics (at least later models), you can accomplish that IF you have a 4-wheel drive transfer case that incorporates a neutral. As jatrax says, the Active Drive I 4WD system does NOT incorporate a neutral position, but the Active Drive II 4WD system DOES incorporate a neutral position. In the later model Cherokees, at least, the Active Drive I is standard on some 4WD models, with the Active Drive II system as optional on some of the models. The Trailhawks incorporate the Active Drive II system as standard. If one is interested in towing a Cherokee, be sure it is 4WD with Active Drive II.
In the research, I also ran across the "death wobble" issue. Again, jatrax is exactly right on the cause and the fix. It has nothing to do with the transmission type, but surfaced as an issue when Jeep moved from hydraulic to electric power steering (EPS). As he says, there is a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) describing the problem and the fix--which is to install an add-on wiring harness which maintains power to the EPS, adding resistance to the steering. I hadn't seen prices on cost of the harness or installation--the $1700 dealer estimate sounds pretty steep (it's a pretty simple harness, but I don't know exactly how it ties in to the existing EPS wiring). The good news is that Jeep incorporated a fix in the 2019 models, so the add-on wiring harness isn't needed--that's one reason I decided to go with a new Trailhawk instead of a '17 or '18. With the EPS fix and the Active Drive II, it is ready to tow as is. My research had focused on Jeep Cherokee models, but I believe the general guidelines apply to the later model Grand Cherokees, Wranglers, etc. The unit will either need a manual transmission, or if an automatic, will need to be 4WD that has a transfer case with a neutral position. If the unit has electric power steering, models earlier than 2019 should have the TSB for the wiring harness applied.
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My exposure to true 4x4 automatics is very limited. Please help me to understand today's vehicles with gear transfer cases.
Our 2006 Jeep Liberty has a mechanically operated gear transfer case. We put the automatic transmission in park and the gear transfer case in neutral by mechanically moving a lever into the neutral position. Doing so allows all 4 wheels to spin freely while being towed, and it prevents the automatic transmission from spinning which protects it.
The days of a manually operated shift lever for the gear transfer case have gone away (or so I think) replaced with electronic push buttons. Most push-button types today are not approved for towing because either there is no neutral button to select, or if it has a neutral button, the electronics won't keep the gear transfer case in neutral once the vehicle has been turned off.
Do I understand this correctly?
How does a vehicle like a current-day Jeep Wrangler 4x4 with a gear transfer case work for 4-wheel-down towing? Does it have an electronically activated push-button gear transfer case? Or does it have a mechanical lever system like our 2006 Liberty?
I found this picture on the web, a 2006 Liberty like ours. Note the gear transfer case lever to the left of the gear shifter.
(http://momentcar.com/images/jeep-liberty-2006-12.jpg)
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Jeep all the way. I have a 2014 Cherokee Trailhawk and it pulls like a dream. In any Cherokee models you must have the upgrade four wheel drive system to tow four down. Jeep odometers do not record towed miles like many other manufacturers.
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Ron,
I understand your question addresses a "gear transfer case" model, and I won't attempt to answer your specific question about the Wrangler, since I did not focus on that model once I decided on a Cherokee (I'm sure some of the Wrangler owners will that that answer). I will just briefly confirm that the Cherokees with the Active Drive II systems have an electronic shifted neutral that is activated by a small button on the console by the shifter. The tiny button has an "N" logo, and is depressed in a sequence with the engine off to disengage the transfer case from the drive line. A small indicator light by the button lights to confirm that neutral is achieved. The sequence is reversed to re-engage.
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Ron,
I understand your question addresses a "gear transfer case" model, and I won't attempt to answer your specific question about the Wrangler, since I did not focus on that model once I decided on a Cherokee (I'm sure some of the Wrangler owners will that that answer). I will just briefly confirm that the Cherokees with the Active Drive II systems have an electronic shifted neutral that is activated by a small button on the console by the shifter. The tiny button has an "N" logo, and is depressed in a sequence with the engine off to disengage the transfer case from the drive line. A small indicator light by the button lights to confirm that neutral is achieved. The sequence is reversed to re-engage.
Interesting!
That seems very simple. I assume it will stay in neutral with the engine off and everything shut down. If that be the case, if you hit that little button, I assume there would be a risk of the vehicle rolling away on you like would be the case with our 2006 Liberty with the gear transfer case in neutral. It would need to be that way in order to tow it.
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Well, it does stay in neutral with the engine off once properly activated, but Jeep has implemented a couple of things to prevent accidental roll-off. First the neutral button can't be accidentally engaged--it's a really tiny button, and is inset. It's one of those deals that you use an instrument like a ball point pen tip to press. Secondly, I mentioned a sequence to engage it, which the manual lays out. That involves a requirement to set the (electric) parking brake prior to activation, among other actions. It's obvious that Jeep focused on engineering the process to effectively safeguard against accidental vehicle movement.
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Well, it does stay in neutral with the engine off once properly activated, but Jeep has implemented a couple of things to prevent accidental roll-off. First the neutral button can't be accidentally engaged--it's a really tiny button, and is inset. It's one of those deals that you use an instrument like a ball point pen tip to press. Secondly, I mentioned a sequence to engage it, which the manual lays out. That involves a requirement to set the (electric) parking brake prior to activation, among other actions. It's obvious that Jeep focused on engineering the process to effectively safeguard against accidental vehicle movement.
Ah! That all makes perfect sense.
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Thanks Mikeh for the clear explanation! And I am delighted that Jeep fixed this issue with the 2019 models. I believe the death wobble started with the 2016 model year and despite the dealer's sales manager telling me it was 'fixed' (even though he had never heard of it) it was an issue on my 2017 and I assume the 2018 model year.
The dealer insisted I pay $1,700 to have it installed after the sale. I complained loudly and my salesman backed me up because I had stated repeatedly the only reason I was buying the Jeep was to tow. And the sales manager had insisted there was 'no problem'. We settled on $200. Two months later I got a notice form a collection agency asking for the remaining $1,500. After several letters back and forth they let it go. But I will not be buying anything from that dealer again.
Do you still have the in dash switch to turn on the power steering computer or is this now automatic?
On my model year the sequence to prepare for 4 down towing is:
-Transmission in PARK
-Engine off
-Connect to tow bar
-Door must be closed or parking brake will turn on
-Ignition to ON but do not start
-Press and hold brake pedal
-Shift into NEUTRAL
-Hold down transfer unit neutral button for 4 seconds
-Neutral button should blink then turn solid red
-Start the engine
-Shift transmission into REVERSE
-Release brake pedal and wait 5 seconds
-Shift transmission into NEUTRAL
-Shift transmission into PARK
-Turn engine OFF
-Remove key
-Double check that parking brake is OFF
-Wait until dash/nav/gps displays all turn off
-Turn console switch to ON
-Insert fuse in fuse holder in engine compartment
-Connect the tow power cable
-Check tow bar is locked properly
-Check car brake and turn lights for function
-Test power steering, wheel should turn freely
-Double check that parking brake is OFF
And ROn, yes once the transfer case is in neutral the vehicle is free to roll away unless you have the wheels chocked or the parking brake on. I do both!
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Jeeps aside, the OP started the discussion by asking about the best SMALL dingy cars. Personally, I wouldn't consider a 4000 lb vehicle small. My Ford Ranger only weighs 3600 lbs, but I don't think anyone except an F-150 owner would call it a "small vehicle". It certainly doesn't tow like a small vehicle.
Here's the list I considered over the past two years that I've been looking. Now that I bought a Smart, I wish I'd looked harder for that Mini Cooper roadster I really wanted. But you have to be careful with Mini's. The early ones had a problem with timing chain failure that wasn't solved until 2012. The Fiat is a better version of the "Smart", for a lot more money (and it's a Fiat). I REALLY wanted a '97 Chevy Tracker 4WD, but couldn't find a good one. The Toyota Yaris is probably the "best" of the lot, but very boring. I just couldn't make myself buy one. Maybe if they'd made a ragtop.
Smart (2008 to 2013) 1,808 to 1,896 lbs, 106.1" -- Towable as is without speed or distance restrictions.
Suzuki sidekick and variants (1989-2004) 2,291 to 2,751 lbs, 143.7" to 151.8" - 4WD STD towable, 2WD not (according to manual), but people have been doing it successfully for 20 years.
Suzuki X-90 (1995-1997) 2,326 to 2,469, 146.1" 12 ft -- STD is towable as is without restrictions. This was a roadster built on the Sidekick chassis. Even 4WD was available.
Suzuki Samurai (1986-1995) 2,059 lbs, 135" 11 ft. -- STD is towable as is without restrictions.
Mini Cooper (2001 present) 2,315 lbs, 142.8" 12 ft -- STD is towable as is without restrictions.
Hyundai Accent 2dr (2005-2011) 2,467-2,533 lbs, 159.3" 13 ft -- STD is towable as is up to 65mph
Mazda Miata (1990 present) 2,293 lbs, 155.4" 13 ft -- Not towable according to Mazda and REMCO but many people do (STD only).
Honda Del Sol (1992-1997) 2,295–2,535 lb, 157.6" 13 ft -- Honda says no but Suzuki says STD is
Honda S2000 (1999–2009) 2,809 lbs, 162.2" 14 ft -- Not towable
Toyota MR2 (1999-2007) 2195 lbs, 153 in 13' -- STD towable as is without restrictions
Toyota Paseo (1991-1999) 2025 to 2160 lbs, 164" 14' -- STD towable as is without restrictions
Toyota Yaris hatchback (2007-present) 2,290 to 2,335 lbs, 151" 13' -- STD towable w/o restrictions
Scion IQ (2008–2016) 1,896 lb, 120.1" 10ft -- Not towable
Scion xB (2003-2006) 2395lbs, 155.3" 13 ft. -- STD towable to 55mph and 200 miles
Scion tC (2004-2010) 2905lbs, 174" 15 ft. -- STD towable to 55mph and 200 miles
Scion xD (2007-2014) 2,665 lb, 154.7" 13ft (same as 4d Yaris)
Fiat 500 (2007–present) 1,907–2,161 lb, 139.6 in 12ft -- STD towable without restrictions
Kia Soul 2,714 to 2,837 lbs, 163" -- Kia says no. Lots of people do it anyway.
Honda Fit (2001-present) 2390 lbs, 151.4 in, 13 ft. -- STD towable up to 65mph
Honda Civic Coupe (2005-2011) 2,586 lbs, 175", 15 ft. -- STD towable as is without restrictions
Chevrolet Aveo (and Sonic) (2002-present) 2,546, 154" 13 ft -- STD towable as is without restrictions
Chevrolet Spark (Daiwoo) (2007-present) 2,246 to 2,312 lbs, 145 in, 12'-- STD towable as is without restrictions
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On my model year the sequence to prepare for 4 down towing is...
Holy cow! we'd never get all that right. On our standard shift Subaru Forester AWD (around 3500 lbs), the procedure is:
- Put car in neutral
- Turn key one click to accessory
- Turn off display screen using buttons on steering wheel (optional but saves battery)
- Hook up tow bar and electric cables between coach and car (any toad needs this)
- Release emergency brake
- flip switch to activate auxiliary braking (optional)
Basically three steps required to ready the car: neutral, accessory, emergency brake - done!
John and I can hook up, test lights, and roll in five minutes.
That said, We don't like the way they wired our toad lights so we added little magnetic mouse ear lights which add a step: flip the switch on the extra lights to on.
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Holy cow! we'd never get all that right.
Hence my somewhat lukewarm enthusiasm for towing my Jeep. (WH)
That process is a long way from what I was told to expect. I have a paper checklist and follow it exactly every time. Then my wife double checks it. And then she stands beside the Jeep while I move forward to make sure everything looks good and the wheels are turning freely.
We have gotten it wrong a couple of times. Once I drug the Jeep about 5' in gravel with DW yelling "Stop, Stop" because the parking brake is electric and automatic. So if you are not careful and open the door before the dash lights go out it will turn on the parking brake when you open the door.
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Blue blaze. You’ve nailed it, finding a light weight tow isn’t easy and 4,000 lbs isn’t light and considering we tend to load all are extras in it there’s that as well. Even towing a smart car you really notice the difference once you unhook. All at once your PC reacts like a SUV. Amazes me how hard the V10 must work in a tall class A 36 + foot long and towing a 4500 jeep.
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Thanks Mikeh for the clear explanation! And I am delighted that Jeep fixed this issue with the 2019 models. I believe the death wobble started with the 2016 model year and despite the dealer's sales manager telling me it was 'fixed' (even though he had never heard of it) it was an issue on my 2017 and I assume the 2018 model year.
The dealer insisted I pay $1,700 to have it installed after the sale. I complained loudly and my salesman backed me up because I had stated repeatedly the only reason I was buying the Jeep was to tow. And the sales manager had insisted there was 'no problem'. We settled on $200. Two months later I got a notice form a collection agency asking for the remaining $1,500. After several letters back and forth they let it go. But I will not be buying anything from that dealer again.
Do you still have the in dash switch to turn on the power steering computer or is this now automatic?
John, on the 2019 Cherokee, there is no switch to apply power to the EPS. I don't know for sure exactly HOW Jeep remedied the "death wobble" issue, but it doesn't seem to be an electrical solution. The consensus from the Jeep enthusiast forums is that they evidently installed some type of dampening in the steering mechanism. As a matter of fact, Jeep has not done a good job of communicating on this issue. I understand that has been a hallmark of the issue ever since it first surfaced--it took Jeep some time to acknowledge it back in 2016, and then there was mixed messaging from various dealers and service personnel regarding whether it existed, was fixed, or how to address it. Jeep finally published the Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) that defined the condition and the wiring harness solution, but even after that there were rumors that it had been corrected on 2017 models, then on 2018 models--neither which was accurate.
Even with the 2019's, the printed "User Guide" that I got with my new vehicle still has the old Recreational Vehicle Towing Chart that specifies use of the "flat tow wiring kit" and also the Warning Box that states that you must "use the proper Mopar wiring kit to power the steering system", and the necessity of charging the battery while towing. The more updated information, however--the online 2019 Owner's Manual, as well as the electronic manual you can access from the vehicle multi-media system has eliminated all references to those requirements. There is also a Jeep communication that mentions that the TSB for the EPS wiring harness fix does NOT apply to 2019 models, but finding all this information takes some diligence and persistence online. I have seen some complaints of customers buying new 2019's and the dealer installed the wiring harness, only to find that they don't need it. Just as occurred with initial identification of this issue and mixed communication from various dealerships, it looks like communication of the fix is erratic within the dealership network, and it's going to take some time to percolate throughout. Jeep is proud of their reputation as a "go-to" vehicle for towing, and even emphasize that in their advertising, but haven't really taken care of all details supporting that business.
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MikeH Thanks for the update. Sounds like the issue has been fixed on 2019 and that is a very good thing. Outside of this issue I am very happy with my 2017 Cherokee. And I agree 100% that communication has been very poor on this.
Anyway, you have a great vehicle and I hope you enjoy it.
Have you got your tow gear installed yet?
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Not yet--just took delivery of the Trailhawk early this week, and my PC delivery will probably be pushing end of year. I plan to get on that pretty quickly, however, and have spent time researching that (bars, braking and lighting options, etc) as well. Always open to advice based on experience though.
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I went with the Roadmaster Sterling (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/towbars/sterling.html) tow bar and Roadmaster Invisibrake (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/sys_for_me.html).
There are lots of good products out there and you will get different opinions depending on what people have used. The decision was easy for me because the Roadmaster factory is 20 miles from my house. We just dropped the Jeep and coach off one day and picked it up the next. Factory install, factory guarantee, factory service. Base plate, tow bar, lighting and wiring all done. The install tech insisted I hook up myself and take a test drive while he watched and road shotgun. Gave suggestions and made sure I understood the entire process before letting us leave.
So far all is good and I am very happy with it.
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I went with the Roadmaster Sterling (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/towbars/sterling.html) tow bar and Roadmaster Invisibrake (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/sys_for_me.html).
There are lots of good products out there and you will get different opinions depending on what people have used. The decision was easy for me because the Roadmaster factory is 20 miles fro8m my house. We just dropped the Jeep and coach off one day and picked it up the next. Factory install, factory guarantee, factory service. Base plate, tow bar, lighting and wiring all done. The install tech insisted I hook up myself and take a test drive while he watched and road shotgun. Gave suggestions and made sure I understood the entire process before letting us leave.
So far all is good and I am very happy with it.
VERY nice!
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Blueblaze, did you buy your smart equipped with a base plate? If you did that’s an additional 1000-1200 saved. You can deduct that from the cost. The cost of a lazer cut key is high no matter what brand. For my Lexus it was 500 plus, for my beemer a bit more and I’m damn sure it’s not much diff for my ford. The engine in the smart is not Mercedes it’s made by Mitsubishi and I’ve seen a few now with over 150,0000 miles and running strong. So if you want the valves checked shop around, forget going to Mercedes.
On the back roads in Minn I got 55 mpg scooting around at 50 mph. On open road I get 43 at 70 mph. The reason they don’t sell well in North America s two fold. One, unlike in Europe we have a lot of open highways and a short wheel base rides rough. Two, we have cheap gas, in Italy where they would kill for 4 dollar a gallon gas we don’t give it a second thought. Americans love big!
I talked to a salesesman who was on his second smart. He drove the first over 200,000 miles. He said I gat 200,000 miles on a car I bought new for 12 grand and never saw a day in the shop. What other car can I buy that gets over 40 mph and costs 12 grand?
We have 35,000 on ours. I bought it new for a little under 12 grand. It’s a great city car but it sucks for the rough ride on the open highway. But then we bought it for a toad. The downside for us is it can’t go on a lot of the rough roads we want to travel due to low clearance. I don’t need 4x4 but I need clearance. We’re looking at selling both our cars and going to one due to we simply don’t need two anymore. Of our present two cars being the Fusion and the smart , if we do get rid of them we will miss the smart the most and by far it’s the most trouble free and cheapest per mile of the two we have. The Smart is perfect for city driving and it’s our go to for around town but in our case we should go to one vehicle and the smart isn’t big enough to cover all our needs.
Too be frank, I haven’t a clue what I’m going to do as it seems every vehicle I’d consider can’t be towed 4 down.
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I went with the Roadmaster Sterling (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/towbars/sterling.html) tow bar and Roadmaster Invisibrake (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/sys_for_me.html).
There are lots of good products out there and you will get different opinions depending on what people have used. The decision was easy for me because the Roadmaster factory is 20 miles from my house. We just dropped the Jeep and coach off one day and picked it up the next. Factory install, factory guarantee, factory service. Base plate, tow bar, lighting and wiring all done. The install tech insisted I hook up myself and take a test drive while he watched and road shotgun. Gave suggestions and made sure I understood the entire process before letting us leave.
So far all is good and I am very happy with it.
Thanks for the input, John. I've heard really good things about the Sterling. You are fortunate to be so close to quality components and service at Roadmaster. Not many local options in southeast Oklahoma, but another forum member, Done Working, lives in Oklahoma City and was able to recommend a well-experienced RV service shop he used there to get his Trailhawk set up a couple of years ago. I know some folks also just drive their tow unit out to Elkhart to pick up their PC, and make their first stop afterwards at Dan's Service Center which is evidently the best place in Elkhart to get a professional tow package installation. As you say, lots of good products out there--and some good installation options if you research.
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Thanks for the input, John. I've heard really good things about the Sterling. You are fortunate to be so close to quality components and service at Roadmaster. Not many local options in southeast Oklahoma, but another forum member, Done Working, lives in Oklahoma City and was able to recommend a well-experienced RV service shop he used there to get his Trailhawk set up a couple of years ago. I know some folks also just drive their tow unit out to Elkhart to pick up their PC, and make their first stop afterwards at Dan's Service Center which is evidently the best place in Elkhart to get a professional tow package installation. As you say, lots of good products out there--and some good installation options if you research.
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Since you mentioned Dan's in Elkhart...I took my Terrain there yesterday (Friday) to have it rewired and replace the connection. They are excellent. Not cheap, but worth every penny. The tech who did it actually came and got me out of the customer lounge, took me back to the shop and explained everything he did and why he did it.
Cheers...
Barry T
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Mike, I believe Camping World can install Roadmaster tow bars. That is where I saw it first but when I noticed the factory was in Vancouver we just went there.
Now whether you trust Camping World is whole 'nuther question. The one here in Troutdale has done some work for me and I was satisfied with it. It was warranty work on my air conditioner so little choice, but they did the job. I have heard lots of unhappy reports about them though. I suppose, like everything, its the people doing the work who matter. Some are good, some not so much.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you are going to want to get your coach aligned once you have it and get some gear and weight inside. Maybe that can be done at the same place as you get the tow gear installed. Just a thought.
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Barry T, thanks for your validation of Dan's--virtually everything I've read about them has been positive (and that has been a lot). They appear to be genuine experts in the RV/off-road tow and accessories business.
John, your evaluation of Camping World duplicates exactly the general read-out I get from several different forums. Looks like the individual sites may vary quite a bit in customer satisfaction, and of course it may depend on what you're having done, and how knowledgeable the staff of that particular site may be in that field.
Regarding the alignment. I note that one of the things that Phoenix Cruiser includes in their "13 Upgraded Standards for 2019" is a "Front End Alignment for all models". I assume that means that they previously didn't do routine alignments, but are now having one done on each unit before delivery. Of course, as you note, that wouldn't be fully loaded with Customer gear, but maybe it's at least a better starting point.
I probably should add a word of contrition and apology to WillieontheRoad. Our discussions have somewhat wandered astray from your initial topic of "Best Small Dingy Cars", but at least most of our comments relate to towing issues, so perhaps there remains some value for readers--I know there has been for me.
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Agree on the topic straying, but lots of good info anyway.
Re alignment: I specified that my rig was to be aligned before pickup. I know they had it to the alignment shop that morning or at least they told me that is where it was. However, either the job was poorly done or adding customer weight makes a big difference. The trip home I fought it all the way. White knuckles and DW could barely drive it. Took it to our local Les Schwab tire shop who re-did the job. Amazing difference. Goes down the road with one hand on the wheel.
So after you pick up and load your gear take a test drive. It should handle like a good pickup (just bigger) :). If you are fighting it, stop and get it aligned.
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Thanks, John. Great information based on experience. Exceedingly valuable to we new (or soon to be) owners--especially to someone like myself with no previous RV experience. We owe all the veterans on this forum a debt of gratitude for taking the time to pass on experience that they have gained at the expense of time, money and frustration. We will just need to pay it forward when we can.
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Blueblaze, did you buy your smart equipped with a base plate?
No, I just spent the weekend installing a Roadmaster baseplate myself. What an ordeal! You have to remove all the plastic body work from the front half of the car! And to make matters worse, somebody had removed all that stuff before at some point and managed to lose half the hardware! Even the cooling baffle was missing! I had to spend an extra $50 on baffling and a pile of little plastic fastener gadgets to put to all back together. You just never know what you're going to get with used car. I hope this is the last of the issues, but something tells me that whoever didn't think a cooling baffle was important probably didn't worry too much about oil changes, either. But it's comforting to hear that a little three-banger can go 200K. I'm due for some luck on this thing.
By the way, who knew that a "Curt" round trailer connector was different from a "Hopkins" round trailer connector? Could I just ask "why?" Naturally, I didn't discover this until I attempted to connect my existing (Hopkins, apparently) umbilical. I decided it would be easier to convert my umbilical AND the Ranger than to rip off the front of the Smart again to redo its connector, so it's back to Amazon. I knew I'd put a Hopkins on the Ranger, but the Curt looked a little nicer. Just goes to show...
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Blueblaze... in the words of Rosanne Rossanadana .... it just goes to show you, it’s always something :)
FYI, the smart requires oil changes every 10K however I had an oil analysis done at 5000 and found it’s time to change at 5 K when using Mobil one . It had a little life left but not enough for me to push longer intervals.
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BlueBlaze, your ordeal is very common across many tow vehicles with rare exception to many Jeep models. A lot has to be removed.
Our first tow vehicle was a 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder of which I installed a Roadmaster tow bar plate. Like you, I had the front clip off the car, and it too had been tampered with by a previous owner. I did get it all back in good order and it turned out to be a very sweet little tow vehicle.
After year #2 towing it, we sold it and got a Jeep Liberty 4x4 to be better equipped for primitive roads. Our last adventure with the Spyder was in Escalante, driving to a canyon called the narrows or slots. Determined as we were, going against recommendation, we drove on an unmaintained primitive road with grooves that could swallow up the car, crossing 3 deep but dry river beds and parking at the trail head next to a row of Jeep Wranglers, we knew we needed something more appropriate for our RV trips.
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I guess my experience with the Ranger baseplate set me up for a false expectation. The only thing I had to remove on the Ranger was the two front tow hooks. And no drilling, it all just bolted on. On the Smart, I literally had the entire body off, from the quarter-panels forward. The worst was drilling two 1/2" holes through a steel box-frame member on each side, while bending the plastic wheel well out of the way because it couldn't be removed without disassembling the steering linkage. But to be fair, at least removing body panels on a Smart is do-able. In fact, I believe you can buy make-over kits on Ebay, where you change the color of your car for a quarter the cost of painting, by entirely replacing all of the plastic body work! So don't mind me. I'm just grousing.
And I should report that the Roadmaster instructions were excellent and all the parts fit perfectly.