Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ron Dittmer on August 19, 2018, 10:52:34 pm
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Just trying to lift the table out from the two poles, the table broke in two. I glued and clamped it back together and reinforced the slab in hopes the table will outlast the rest of the RV.
Here is the table after the repair. The two broken pieces glued back together can be seen but is acceptable to us.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1883/30277817578_696d51f6de_z.jpg)
Here are the two reinforcements. I routered soft radius edges all around for friendly knee bumping. Fortunately they do not interfere with my longer legs. I can still cross them.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1819/30277818888_cd6bdb3e8a_z.jpg)
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Impressive fix. Deciding to upscale our 2100 (it can be debated if such is possible) I used a left over portion of 3/4" ash laminate particle board, which we previously used as replacements for our kitchen cabinets. Some stain along with several coats of urethane and the results were not too bad. Used a router and a black stain on the edges. I believe the new top looks better than the original white table.
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Ron, nice fix!
Cropduster, Beautiful! I'd never seen the white table before. I think yours definitely looks better.
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Ron,
I could not say with certainty after looking at the photos but if the two reinforcing strips under the table are perpendicular to the grain of the solid wood top this could lead to further splitting. Wood exhibits little expansion/contraction along the grain but changes significantly with humidity changes across the grain. If the the reinforcing strips are rigidly attached (appears to have multiple screws) cross grain to the table top the reinforcing strip lengths are virtually unchanged but as humidity drops the top will try to contract and can’t which more than likely will result in either splitting the top and/or breaking in the glue joints. One way to reduce the chance of this occurring is to slot the screw holes in the reinforcing strips such as to allow the top to expand and contract unrestrained. You may have already done the slotting.
I may be looking at the photos wrong and the the reinforcing strips are running in the same direction as the grain of the top and if so please ignore my comments.
Fred
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Cropduster,
Your replacement table is awesome!
fandj,
I would be very surprised if my two oak reinforcements with 6 screws each (only screwed, not glued to the table itself) is not the right solution. If I am wrong and you are right and the table splits again, I would execute plan "B" and have a solid cherry table-top built for me. The current table is 3/4" material. I would go with 1" for the replacement. The table today is not made of cherry. It is a softer and lighter wood that I was not able to identify.
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Ron,
Fandj is correct. Placing battens perpendicular to the grain on solid wood (not plywood) sections more than 6 to 8" in width will cause failure of the wood panel as it expands and contracts. In a year round air conditioned home that might not be an issue if there is little humidity change. But if the humidity does change the wood will move and nothing will stop it. The problem is that wood expands / contracts perpendicular to the grain but not the other way. The panel has it's grain oriented in one direction, the battens in the other.
The accepted method of applying battens to solid wood panels is to route out the screw holes in the battens into slots. This allows the wood panel to expand and contract because the screws slide in the slots.
Personally I doubt there is any need for the battens if you used a good quality yellow wood glue and clamped the joint.
Here is a link about this (http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/). It goes into a lot of other details but covers the essentials.
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Ron, nice fix!
Cropduster, Beautiful! I'd never seen the white table before. I think yours definitely looks better.
Thanks. I believe the utilitarian white table was likely the standard on low-end RVs. Nothing wrong with that, although I was impressed with the table in Ron's RV, not to mention his invisible fix.
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Jatrax and fandj,
I did use Elmer's yellow wood glue. If you are right and it goes south, I will replace the table top as described earlier. I won't be slotting the holes. I want to see what happens.
I don't own a biscuit joiner. If I did, I would have used it and felt better to trust the repair without the additional pair of reinforcements.
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Here is a link about this (http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/). It goes into a lot of other details but covers the essentials.
Wow! I never considered all this, not being a woodworker.
Homes in most of the U.S. that lack humidity control typically experience interior levels of humidity from 25% RH to 65% RH. This range of humidity will cause a 6% change in the MC of the wood. This change in MC will cause a 12-in. wide maple board to change 1/4 in.
So, if I am understanding this correctly, the expansion/contraction is 'against' the grain and not with.
I have the table from our camper in the basement for a few months now. Very humid, as it is partially open to the humid florida weather. We have no need for it now that the receptacles for it on the floor are covered. Never did use it.(Whoops! we did once, on the way home after purchase. Ate subs in a publix parking lot) It appears to be solid maple or oak. it is easily 12" wide, and maybe 4 feet long.
Our house is on the dry side, TOO dry according to my ENT, as AC is on 24/7 from june to october. Going from the high humidity in the basement to the dry house should certainly exceed the 25%RH to 65% RH change that the above quote refers to. I realize the topcoat finish retards moisture transfer in and out of the wood, but does not stop it. I am going to carefully measure the table and store it inside. I am anxious to see that 1/4"+ difference in size.
Oh...if there is anyone out there that needs a table for a 2350 might make you a deal. Its the one that fits in front of the couch, not a dinette. Ours had 4 sockets on the floor, one set for slide in and one for out. The table was nothing but 'in the way' when we tried to use it, so it has spent its life stored inside since. Great shape, with legs. I also have the sockets from the floor if you need.
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And remember that is 1/4" per foot of wood. So a 36" wide table might move 3/4".
I once laid a room of hardwood floor that was not adjusted to interior moisture content. After 2 weeks the boards had all shrunk enough that there were visible cracks between boards and we had to rip up the entire floor and start over.
the expansion/contraction is 'against' the grain and not with.
Depends on what is meant by 'against'. If you take a typical 1 x 12 that is 8 feet long the 8 foot dimension will hardly change. But the 12" dimension will change enough to be noticeable and cause problems. How much it moves will depend on species, and how the board was cut from the log. Grain direction varies depending on where in the log the board came from.
Some cuts are significantly more stable. An example is Quarter Sawn which is often used in fine furniture. Stickley oak furniture popularized this. However quarter sawing is very wasteful. It is done by quartering the log then standing each wedge on the point and cutting it into boards. The boards increase in width as you keep cutting but the grain direction is very uniform and the resulting board is more stable than a flat sawn board. But you won't find quarter sawn wood outside of specialty furniture shops. it is crazy expensive.
I was always taught: "wood moves. Design to allow for it."
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Ron, I ought to just give you mine. For some crazy reason, I saved all the parts from my dinette when I REMOVED IT. It's all up there in the barn attic, on the theory that if I ever sell the RV, it might sell better if I put it back to original. Of course, by that time, my table top will have split, just like yours, and the mice will have eaten the upholstery!
Anyway... my advice would be to just replace the silly thing with a comfy place to sit. I replaced my dinette with a double recliner, complete with built-in TV trays, cup holders, and plugs for our laptops and phones. What an improvement! I even removed that worthless barrel chair and we now have so much room that I can even change my mind without asking the Missus to step outside!
Of course, that means I also I gave up the possibility of taking the grand-kids RV'ing. But as much as I love my grand-kids, the idea of spending a week with them in a 24' RV just doesn't have the appeal that it once did (before I'd actually spent a week in a 24' RV!).
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And remember that is 1/4" per foot of wood. So a 36" wide table might move 3/4".
WOW! :beg
I once laid a room of hardwood floor that was not adjusted to interior moisture content. After 2 weeks the boards had all shrunk enough that there were visible cracks between boards and we had to rip up the entire floor and start over.
I have seen buckling from the same effect.
the expansion/contraction is 'against' the grain and not with.
Depends on what is meant by 'against'.
Crosscut = against, rip=with?
If you take a typical 1 x 12 that is 8 feet long the 8 foot dimension will hardly change. But the 12" dimension will change enough to be noticeable and cause problems. How much it moves will depend on species, and how the board was cut from the log. Grain direction varies depending on where in the log the board came from.
Some cuts are significantly more stable. An example is Quarter Sawn which is often used in fine furniture. Stickley oak furniture popularized this. However quarter sawing is very wasteful. It is done by quartering the log then standing each wedge on the point and cutting it into boards. The boards increase in width as you keep cutting but the grain direction is very uniform and the resulting board is more stable than a flat sawn board. But you won't find quarter sawn wood outside of specialty furniture shops. it is crazy expensive.
I was always taught: "wood moves. Design to allow for it."
That figure of 3/4 movement for 36" of board width.. so a 12x12 foot room's floor could move 3 inches?!? I WOODnt have thought it possible. roflol
Thanks for the clarification! tymote tymote
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Ron, I ought to just give you mine. For some crazy reason, I saved all the parts from my dinette when I REMOVED IT. It's all up there in the barn attic, on the theory that if I ever sell the RV, it might sell better if I put it back to original. Of course, by that time, my table top will have split, just like yours, and the mice will have eaten the upholstery!
We would LOVE to give that dinette a new home. And remove our unused power sofa. Agree on the wide open floor, our coach came without a seat behind the passenger. LOVE it.
We have a grandson going on his first outing with us in October. Hoping for many more. :beg Outings. NOT grandsons. roflol
Ours has a slide, but I would imagine some trimming might enable the unit to work.. Wadda ya think? :)(:
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I WOODnt have thought it possible.
I SAW what you did there.............
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Ron, I ought to just give you mine. For some crazy reason, I saved all the parts from my dinette when I REMOVED IT. It's all up there in the barn attic, on the theory that if I ever sell the RV, it might sell better if I put it back to original. Of course, by that time, my table top will have split, just like yours, and the mice will have eaten the upholstery!
We would LOVE to give that dinette a new home. And remove our unused power sofa. Agree on the wide open floor, our coach came without a seat behind the passenger. LOVE it.
We have a grandson going on his first outing with us in October. Hoping for many more. :beg Outings. NOT grandsons. roflol
Ours has a slide, but I would imagine some trimming might enable the unit to work.. Wadda ya think? :)(:
I wish I'd known. We could have swapped.
But you really don't know how hard that thing is to sit on until you've been forced to sit on it for a few hours because it's the only other chair in the place. I used to drag a folding chair indoors to avoid sitting in that thing. But if you're willing to drive 900 miles to get it, it's yours. I can't imagine trimming it, though. It's tight already, unless you're skinny enough to enjoy flying coach.
I've got to ask -- if you don't use your sofa, where do you sit?
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I've got to ask -- if you don't use your sofa, where do you sit?
On our butts of course... roflol sorry...had to...
I am pretty sure we use the camper much differently than most here.
We dont sit much, if at all, in the camper when it is in 'festival' mode. Its really much more a master suite. If we are inside, most of the time its in bed. Or in the bath. We dont cook in there, nor eat really (unless it is HOT out).
Check out New Year's setup - https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=3031.0 4 day stay. Nice and cool, didnt rain until we were packed up anyway. :-D
The outer area under the awning has a couple chairs and small tables. Outdoor Camp Chef oven and stove combo on a 2x6 folding table. We do our cooking and eating there. Camo netting around it with tapestries allows for a breeze, but is VERY private. The awning has the big angle to shed rain, and is roped and staked down to prevent loss from high wind.
The 8x8 beige tent is like an airlock, and protects from things wandering away. :-[ It is the only entrance to the under-awning area. We had a small raised firepit and had a fire going near the entrance , with two of the larger recliners set up. We spend most of the time at the stage(s) , so it is VERY nice to have the 'airlock' as a visual and physical barrier.
This is our 'small' setup, for when space is limited.
For our WANEE and other larger fests, 5-12 day, we add a 13x13 popup behind the camper, and have a bigger camp kitchen and seating there. At WANEE we cordon off ~ 1/2 acre+ with camo netting, and have several campmates in their own tents. The 13x13 is like the mess hall. There is usually someone there at any time, so things are a little more open and communal 'in camp'.
So.. the coach never really gets 'living room' duty. We *always* have had stuff stored on the couch and behind.
Since you and Ron both have 2350's without slides, maybe Ron has some insight as to how practical it may (or may not) be to consider this swap.
The cushion color isnt that critical, as there are no other seats to match.
1800 mile round trip is a consideration. 2 day out, stay a day, 2 day back. A couple days off work, and $650 in gas. (WH) Have to think this one out.
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OP here with a report.
We went on a two week trip out west with our son who slept on the dinette conversion for 8 nights, then flew home when his time was up. We handled the table a lot when he was with us, twice daily. The table remains in great condition, very strong table top and not noticeably heavier than before....so far so good on the potential warping from my two reinforcements others have mentioned. I suppose the change in seasons will influence any such warping.
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Excellent " stress test" for your repair. I commend your son on sacrificing by going on one of your awesome vacations to conduct the test. I hope you all had a great time!
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Excellent " stress test" for your repair. I commend your son on sacrificing by going on one of your awesome vacations to conduct the test. I hope you all had a great time!
Thanks for asking. We had an exceptional time. Our son (younger son now 29) went with us the first week to Rocky Mountain NP. When his time was up, we dropped him off at the Denver airport where his $46 flight to O'Hare awaited him. Thereafter we spent some time in Medicine Bow WY, then north to Mount Rushmore, Crazy Horse, Minuteman Missile, Badlands, then home. Two weeks in-all, shorter than most of our trips but was still good. We have a lot going on at home, hard to get away lately.
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Our dinette was uncomfortable to sit on until we switched the seat cushions from standard foam with cloth covering, to memory foam with vinyl covering. It made a night-to-day difference in comfort and in getting in and out from the dinette. We wished we ordered our PC with those cushions to begin with.
Volkemon, with your 2006 size slide out, the best you will be able to do is have a single dinette bench and the table against the other wall. Keeping both benches, the table will be cut very tiny and you won't have any leg room. Look around at older PCs being sold with dinettes in a slide out. Phoenix used to offer the dinette in your slide out, but I think they got too many complaints and discontinued that feature until introducing model 2351 and 2552 where the extra foot in the slide out made the difference.
If ordering a new PC today with a dinette for a 2351 or 2552, I always encourage the person to consider eliminating the slide out. Their dinette will open up hugely. You will get piles of leg room and a very nice long table. I think you will also get taller backrest and longer base cushions because you need those cushions bigger to fill in the space when setting up the dinette into a bed. Bigger base cushions also translates into more base cabinet storage.
Without a slide out in models 2351 and 2552, you might also get by with a pantry and standard dinette like we have.
One thing certain for "any" dinette consideration.....GET the memory foam (dense foam) flat cushions with leather surfaces for easy entry and exit so the dinette is very comfortable to sit at for extended periods. Our dinette shown here is what you want it to look like. Flat seating surfaces. Not fancy fluffy and uneven couch-like cushions done up in cloth.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8245/8462458531_d34a4d70f7_z.jpg)