Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: ron-n-toni on July 16, 2018, 07:57:12 pm
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I was at the factory to to have a new dash installed. The old one discolored. Also had an awning installed. The line was full but there were no units in the welding area getting started. I heard a comment that they better make some sales at the FMCA show. I spoke to Pete, a saleman wbile waiting on my rig. He said they made a big mistake raising the price so much and were having a meeting today about it. The increase included the slide as standard with a rebate for no slide. New on 2019 models. Would you believe positive locking cabinet latches. The 2351 will have a rear bed slide, no more side bed. Also an all inclusive monitor and switch panel, cpap outlet. Also, wood floor is out due to swelling but will be replaced with wood grain vinyl. As usual, the work was fast and well done. While in the shop they found a slide seal ripped and replaced it, Installed locks on the new panty drawers so they won't open going around curves, and replaced the fire extinguisher due to a recall. All is well. (cheer)
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I have to admit, since the price hike, I have not been promoting PC's as being a good value anymore. It's priced closer to a Coach House having me mentioning people to compare the two and decide for themselves. With the price gap reduced, it might be worth the extra $$$ to go 100% seamless.
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I can buy a Newmar baystar for less than they want for a 2910 and a base canyon star for the same. If I was buying new and saw their price sheet I’d be looking elsewhere in minutes. There are much better options at the prices their asking. It’s a competitive market and the big boys can run you over if your not careful.
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WOW! I just priced out a new 2350 with the same options as our 2013 model. All I can say is this should help to hold the value/price of our well kept older PCs. The price for new was $138,424 "list" and $110,742 "discount price".
Price one out for your make and model and see what you think.
Paul
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Adding a rear bed slide = a lot of rear weight. Having a 2350, 450, I don't think that is a great idea. I wish they would have taken a hard look at a total redesign to get a bigger bed. I'm convinced it can be done, especially on the 2351. Slides appear to be the answer for most manufactures.
Doug
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Take those price numbers with a grain of salt. I just priced a 2551, 'exactly' like our 2015-2551.
The price says the 2551 (now) comes standard with slide out with refrigerator & sofa. Then, lower down, I selected Slide out with Sofa... That added $5,625...I shouldn't have been able to select that. Lower down, it let me select leather sofa... Ca'ching!...add another $415.
Plus, things I believe used to be standard or part of the Convenience package are now extra (like the porch light) but they only add up to a few hundred dollars.
Anyway... New List price is $137,600.The list on my 2015 was $124,000. If you remove the $5,600 for the slide out (because I believe that's a mistake) that works out to $132,000 for today's dupe of my current PC.
Considering these are 2019 models... That's only up about $2k per year.
However, in 2015..you only paid 70% of list, I *believe* that now you pay 78% of list. That's a chunk of change!
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Something else to consider. When most of us bought our units, there was Kermit, Earl, Kyle, and Karen. Now there are twelve (12) in the office and 12 on the production floor. One indian for each Chief. Just a tad top heavy. (WH)
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I priced what I would of wanted off their pricing sheet.. $200k. Unbelievable, my cost $160k. I have a lot of choices that are better for that kind of doe.....
Yikes! That pricing will surely hurt sales. Going back 11 years, we struggled to pay $67,200 plus tax, plus $3900 in suspension upgrades. Our investment kept going (and keeps on going today) with me installing both TVs, better bath fixture, water pressure tank, captain 3rd seat, better dinette seats, roof vent covers, etc. etc. etc. Starting out so high and running up higher from there would be a serious problem for us.
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We toured the Coach House plant in FL and purchased a used one from another dealer. I wouldn't purchase one again - the quality wasn't there and parts of the design were not well thought out. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Still, understanding the market and pricing is critical to continuous success in the RV building/selling business. It's certainly in our best interest for the owners to understand this and get it figured out.
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It's certainly in our best interest for the owners to understand this and get it figured out.
Pricing of any product is always a challenge, especially when there are so many options in a rather mature industry.
The key is to maximize profit, which in some cases means actually selling less units.
One business model is moving upscale a bit which fits PC in a number of ways: they have limited production capacity, they have committed to quality construction and accommodating custom work and their B+ 'niche' has been flooded in recent years with models from practically all manufacturers. No way they can continue to with a 'value' model when the big guys are burying them in cheaply made units on dealer floors.
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Jatrax, I agree in that there are many really cheaply / poorly built units out there. That being said there are also many quality units that are less expensive, some of them in the top rankings of the industry. Many times it’s the big boys who can sell for less with the best quality due to the volume of parts etc they buy giving them an advantage, sometimes it’s the big boys affording underselling to drive out the little guy.
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Joseph, I agree. All I meant is that "value" and "low volume" do not often produce a profitable business model. If PC has to move "upscale" to survive then that is what they will do. And that might leave some customers looking elsewhere but that's business. I think there is a good niche for them if they focus on quality at the middle-high end and custom craftsmanship.
One issue I see is that their offering is very "old school" in many ways. Which is fine for their traditional market of retirees. But as younger folks start to buy RV's they are looking for things that real 'campers' would never dream of. There are a lot of 'cute' RV's on the market on Sprinter bodies that look fresh and modern. Much as I like the Ford e-series it looks like my dad's RV.
I firmly believe they should be looking at 'packages' like a "boondocking" rig with lots of battery, solar and tank space on a 4x4. Or some other package designed to fit a particular lifestyle. If they could put that together and focus on people's lifestyle use of the rig rather than just features I think they would have something.
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Both you Joseph and you Jatrax make great points. Hopefully Phoenix will figure out where they best fit in the industry, a successful business model whether priced higher with lower volume, or priced lower at higher volume. I personally feel it is most risky to increase volume beyond their current capacity.....but I am no business wizard.
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It seems to me Phoenix has (had) that niche. The assembly line was full and the wait times kept getting longer. If they truly don't have any in the chute in this economy, there's a problem.
That said, they don't always have a rig in every spot on the assembly line so it's possible the gap was only there for a day or so. Also, if there are now multiple sales reps where once was one, there will be competition for those commissions and there will NEVER be enough sales.
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I firmly believe they should be looking at 'packages' like a "boondocking" rig with lots of battery, solar and tank space on a 4x4.
This is a niche that I believe no one has gone after. Since PC already offers a 4 wheel drive they are ahead of most of making this happen. They really need to come up to state of the art in solar and batteries, where they are lagging, and increase the propane tank capacity.
I had asked about a larger propane tank and they said no. But when you look under the 2552 there is all kinds of room for a larger tank.
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Re. pricing the sales guy at the rally said the standard pricing is with the slide and then they give a discount if you don't want it.
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We have never had a serious lack of propane, but still it would be nice to have a larger tank to use it with less a worry. Our furnace seems to use a lot. Fortunately we rarely use the furnace.
There are on-shelf RV propane tanks of which I suppose you could do your own research to see what is available, what larger size will fit your 2552, paying close attention to how to mount it safely to your existing PC framing.
One thing I wished our PC had was a rear wheel fender liner to protect the propane tank from direct rear tire splash.
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I'm coming from the Boondocking side and description Jatrax describes. That is what we wanted to order. At the time, Jan of 2017, talking to Earl and crew, they thought I was crazy!
Trying to convince me resale would not be good, something I was not, and am not concerned about. Asking questions about better solar, bigger tanks, cassette toilets, another battery bank, including lithium, 12v air conditioning(yes there really is such a thing, something Earl didn't know), other things that would have been nice would have been a built in air compressor, integrated bike racks, and a few others, put us in the NUTSO category!
There is no doubt PC has no idea what the market is in the West.
So I quickly came to the realization we were going to have to order as striped a model as we could and basically gut the thing and make our own additions.
We ordered, no TV's, no roof rack,or ladder, the toilet against the wall in the 2350, giving us a bigger grey tank, no paint, no awning, ETC...ETC.. knowing that we had to basically spend twice on items like, battery upgrades, inverter/charger replacement, and having to add a good solar system, rearrange the rear bed/shower configuration to allow for a useable bed. Things that make sense to me, the way I use an RV anyway.
To date we have added 680 watts of solar panels, replaced the inverter/charger, added a good monitor, installed two sets of lifeline batteries giving us 600amps., replaced the front bumper, added an integrated bike rack and outside cook station.
The built in air compressor will be mounted in the front bumper, the rear bed project is to get started this winter.
What the solar/batteries have allowed us to do so far is run our microwave/oven off batteries, not worry much about recharging capabilities. They will also allow us to do a full replacement of the not so Norcold Refer to a 12v. marine, and possibly change out the propane stove to electric.
I agree the propane tanks are small too, I'm approaching it from a little different angle though, trying to reduce the number of appliances that use it, and go solar instead. I would like to eliminate propane but the heating issue is a tough one to overcome.
Sorry for the long winded response, but I just wanted to CONFIRM Jatrax has a great point, new specific models should be considered, these are our dads version, and I'm OLD!
Doug
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@biglexmax I'm a little jealous! Sounds like a really fun project. Would you mind posting some pictures and details when you get a chance?
Curious where you located the second battery bank?
Which inverter/charger did you get?
Outside cook station? Come on we need pictures!
We have the Norcold DE0061 and so far really like it. Usage has been 36 watts per hour measured over a 10 day period. We find even our modest solar array has been sufficient to keep it running indefinitely given even partly sunny skies. Sadly despite the fact that it is a 12volt / 120volt unit Phoenix wired it to a 120 volt receptacle that runs off the inverter. So it was running off the inverter instead of the battery when not on shore power. It took a half day's work tracing and rewiring to make it work the way it was supposed to.
For us, the gray tank size is the most limiting and difficult to improve on.
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After ditching the heavy pedestal table for a folding Tablemate XL I discovered that the furnace runs a lot less with the slide-out retracted.
The Winnebago Revel has some really innovative boondocking technology, but it's far from a luxury coach or even what many would consider as being practical. Eventually all-electric rv' s will become common though, and maybe the suspended bed over cycle garage/ mini toy hauler concept will catch on too.
I agree that putting the 2351’s bed in a slide-out seems questionable , basically a do-over of the discontinued 2550 that preceded the more popular 2551 (WH)
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I agree that putting the 2351’s bed in a slide-out seems questionable , basically a do-over of the discontinued 2550 that preceded the more popular 2551 (WH)
I half-agree with you. A 2351 with a rear corner bed slide out would be better, but similar to a 2550. Coachhouse and a few others are offering it and so I wonder if that has been their inspiration. Phoenix could eventually go full circle and offer model 2700 discontinued around 5 years ago, as a new innovation.
As many of you know, Irene and I are not lovers of slideouts, but if we had one or two, I would much prefer it extend out on the left/driver side as not to interfere with a full awning camp setup.
Model 2700 seemed to be a nice choice for people who want to sleep together but need easier access to their bed, and not get so long of a PC to get it. I wonder if Phoenix would build it upon request.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/921/29717632408_5e49786ce3_z.jpg)
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Jatrax,
We are fortunate to have a AM Solar distributor spend his summers here locally, so he did all the solar work, electrical work.
We went with a Magnum inverter, Victron controller/monitor, he replaced all the fuse, breaker panels also. Having ordered it without the shower skylight and most of the other stuff on the roof we can actually put 200 more watts of panels on top if needed.
The second set of batteries went directly under the sink, yes we lost the cabinet for storage, but its the perfect spot, basically right above and center of the outside set, and forward of the rear wheels.
The inverter went under the bed.
The 12v refers like you have, are a step up for sure, and I'm glad to hear they use so little power. That will be one of our last changes, due to cost. We always carry a 50L Indel 12v portable refer/freezer with us, and I'm very happy with the technology.
We are headed to Montana next week, it will be our maiden voyage with most of the changes we have made. So we will see how it all works in real life.
I'm not a picture posting kind of guy, but I will give it a shot when we get back from the trip.
Doug
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Ron, unlike you we wouldn’t consider a unit without a slide. I’m curious from a want to learn standpoint what it is that has turned you against a slide? Weight? Concerns about leaks? There are slides I would not consider such as a full length or one with a residential fridge in the slide.
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I'm not a picture posting kind of guy, but I will give it a shot when we get back from the trip.
Thanks Doug, no worries if you do not get around to it. I am really interested in your build though so if you get into my area give me a shout would love to take a look at your rig.
I talked to the AM Solar folks several times when I was getting my coach and elected to have PC install the solar because it was more convenient. But I really wish there had been time to have AM Solar do it.
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Ron, unlike you we wouldn’t consider a unit without a slide. I’m curious from a want to learn standpoint what it is that has turned you against a slide? Weight? Concerns about leaks? There are slides I would not consider such as a full length or one with a residential fridge in the slide.
Do you really want my opinion? I used to share it now and then but would always get quite a negative response via the old "unneighborly" button. Before I start, I want to say that I am surely in the minority. Most people LOVE their slide-out(s) and I respect their feelings about having them.
Okay, here goes. Keep in-mind that our goal is to own our PC for over 30 years, hopefully over 35 years. So "long-term reliability" weighs extremely heavy compared to "resale value".
1) A slide-out costs a lot of extra money if buying a new PC or other brand. Is that money better spent on other features?
2) Each slide-out adds between 400 and 700 pounds depending on it's size, to an already concerning load.
3) Even with the topper, slide-outs can get standing water on top from wind-driven rain. You have to dry it off after pulling in the slide-out, before moving your rig or the puddle of water becomes air born inside your rig.
4) Bugs, dirt, pine needles, leaves, and general wetness get a free ride to the inside of your rig when closing your slide-out.
5) Slide-outs can rattle when driving, especially with age.
6) Slide-outs can radiate in and leak in cold when it's cold outside, and heat & humidity when it's hot outside, especially with age.
7) Slide-outs increase sensitivity to the leveling of the rig. We often "wing it" for a night or two with less of a worry.
8) Outside noise penetrates more with a slide-out.
9) You loose notable storage with a slide-out. Both up top with smaller hanging cabinets, and sometimes below.
10) You loose wall space to accommodate the slide-out, even worse when the slide-out is adjacent to the transition wall.
11) The reliability of a properly functioning slide-out diminishes with the years.
12) Having a slide-out creates a huge hole and also a very heavy plug in your wall. Over-all integrity of the house is compromised.
13) During the travel portion of the trip, the box is in the house. Irene and I don't like that.
14) In our 2350 scenario, a comfortable dinette was critical, a couch was not. Our bolt-down captain seat with seat belt by the entry door provides a compromising half couch. Our no-slide dinette in our 2350 utilizes the transition wall & slide-out wall thickness(x2) providing a decent table & leg room, by utilizing the much extra linear wall space.
15) Since the primary slide-out has included the fridge since model year 2010, other mechanical compromises were made.
CLICK HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157682846402944) to see pictures of our slideless dinette. Note the rear bench is right up against the fridge wall. The front bench is many inches inside the transition wall, but no so much to interfere with driver seat adjustment. Some pictures show our original cloth cushions with standard foam. We changed cushions around 5 years ago to the vinyl cushions with memory foam. That increased the comfort factor immensely, a wonderful improvement.
CLICK HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157617468317295) to see our general interior. We don't value the elbow room of a slide-out nearly as much as all the benefits I listed. BUT....I do wonder if we were snow birds living in our PC for many months at a time, if we would feel differently.
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Jatrax .... we will get together someday for sure, we are just over the hill from you in Mosier.
Ron, those are all well thought out concerns. I would not worry about any bashing. If more people would understand how they are going to use their RV, and buy accordingly, our land fills would not take such a beating.
Doug
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Do you really want my opinion? I used to share it now and then but would always get quite a negative response via the old "unneighborly" button.
Ron, since the "unneighborly" button is gone you are now safe. roflol
Hard to believe anyone would hit that button just because you don't like slides. I like my slide and I'm willing to live with the potential downsides but reading your posts has opened my eyes to the fact that while slides are great they are not required. And for some folks are a negative.
I was going to give my opinion on your list of "why nots..." but decided not to. I agree with about half of your points and highly disagree with some. The rest are personal preference. The great thing is you can get an RV from Phoenix either way.
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Thanks Ron, I really wanted your opinion. Some I agree with some I don’t or doesn’t apply to my situation. Such as cost being I never buy new. All that aside everyone spends there money differently and has various views on things. I was sincerely interested in your take on the slides.
You mentioned in another post about having an older rig being not the norm in your area or something of that nature. In that regard I’m in the “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” category. You know you’ve got a good rig that’s not collaring you to death, why change.
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Hi Guys,
We are all entitled to our opinions. Thank you for allowing me to share my opinion without taking it personal. I would love to read your list of reasons, why you prefer a slide-out (or multiple slide-outs) even though some of your listed reasons might directly contradict mine.
Ron
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I would love to read your list of reasons, why you prefer a slide-out
Ron the only reason to add a slide is the increase in interior space when parked. Any buyer needs to balance that with your comprehensive list of negatives. Any issues I have with your list are more of how much they matter rather than whether they are true or not.
1) OK
2) The extra weight is a concern on some but not all models. On my 2552 we still have plenty of carrying capacity even with the slide.
3 & 4) Can't argue except to say it really has not been an issue for us especially with the new seals. We have camped in very wet weather and very little if any water remains on the slide top, UNLESS you are not properly level.
5, 6, 7, 8) Not really our experience or at least not enough to notice. YMMV of course
9 & 10) OK
11) Maybe but is that your expectation or do you have statistics? The whole rig is going to get less reliable as it ages
12) I would think they have engineered the coach to allow for that but I won't argue
13) Not a concern for us in the 2552 but other models might be different
14) Our modified 2552 has both couch and dinette so not an issue for us but again other models will be different
15) Not being up on older models I am not sure what you meant with this one
I suspect if I was getting a 2350 I might seriously consider a no slide configuration. But in the larger 2552 it makes sense to me to have it. Personal space needs and comfort will be different for different people so no one can say what makes some other person happy. After 18 months I am still happy with our modified 2552 with slide. We have looked at quite a few other rigs and feel no desire for a change. But there is no question that a no slide configuration is going to be simpler construction.
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Thanks jatrax for your slide-out thoughts. One thing certain is that your 2552 can surely handle the extra weight of it's slide out. Given the 2552's configuration, it might even improve "weight distribution" between front and rear suspensions.
CalCruiser, I can't recall who...maybe it was you....someone was trying to get a bigger dining table and more leg room. It can be accomplished by ordering either a 2351 or a 2552 without a slide-out. The extra wall space accommodates for it. For Irene and me, that would have been exceptional. We would love a bigger dining table and more leg room. What we have today works well, but that would work even better.
Ron
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Ron - I think you are spot-on about a 54” wide slide-out dinette . I was going to post a link to Booth Love by Umphrees McGee, but that might be too un-neighborly haha.
The 54” sofa in a slide-out that converts to an extra bed was a Phoenix Cruiser innovation that is great in a small rig like the 2350. Since ours has the old style extra cabinets above the cab we don’t miss the additional storage you get with the dinette .
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Ron, for us it is all about room. With the low ceiling and overall small unit we like the feel of more room and less claustrophobic. Cost wise a 4 year old unit with under 20,000 miles has lost 50% or more and the market is so saturated with lightly used units it’s easy to find a unit to fit ones needs. So with that in mind the cost of the slide isn’t a factor. Weight wise on our 2552 it isn’t an issue. Leaves etc have never been an issue with our slide to date.
The dinette is smaller and the cut of the cushions makes it hard to slide in and out. It was an easy fix by cutting the foam of the lower cushionwhich was overstuffed and hung too far over. Granted if a couple is obese the dinettes in a slide are going to be uncomfortable. But in my opinion these units are too cramped for large people
( be it girth or height).
I understand your reasoning and it’s not wrong, just different than ours. It’s all good.
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I understand your reasoning and it’s not wrong, just different than ours. It’s all good.
2o2
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I had a new 1996 Bounder 34J with no slides and loved it. When we decided to go full time, I bought a new 2001 Monaco Diplomat LE with two slides. The big slide leaked like a sieve and caused a lot of problems (one time I actually had water coming out of one of the 110 outlets). I hated slides and always said that I would love to have a Class A with no slides.
Before being introduced to Phoenix Cruiser, I was really interested in Lazy Daze, but did not want to make the trip to California. I decided on a 3100 with the slide, having never read any major leaking issues with PC. I hope I won't be disappointed and don't think I will.
Back to what Ron said about snowbirding...now that we are able to travel again, we will be spending 3 to 4 months in it each winter and I think the slide will be a welcomed feature. Also, make some long trips in the summer. No kids, no grand kids, only a 5lb dawg.
Finally, I really enjoy this board. Lots of useful information and it comes from experienced RVers. It is unbelievable some of the advice given or answers to questions on some of the Facebook pages (not the Phoenix Cruiser Facebook page). Thanks again to all who have replied to my questions and comments. tymote I look forward to meeting some of you someday.
Oh! I am headed to Elkhart next Monday to check out my PC and go over the build sheet with Barry Hyser. Really looking forward to it. Staying an extra day to check out the goings-on in Elkhart. My PC is scheduled for completion in late September.
Cheers... :)(:
Barry T
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If you have the opportunity, go and visit the RV Hall Of Fame. It's a collection of RVs from day one onward. Very interesting. :)(:
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We picked up our 2910D in mid June (a month and a half ago). We arrived on a Tuesday and departed on Friday. We had rain everyday and on two days, what I would call torrential rain. No leaks -nothing! I was glad it rained while we were there and even happier to see light and heavy rain just in case. We also customized a bit (many thanks to my wife for remembering to ask those "can you install ..." questions!).
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Two hams, I saw a rv flipping show where they visited that RV hall of fame. It really looked interesting. Some very rare and unique units.
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In regards to slides, I have seen a few people with serious slide issues. One on a new motorhome where the slide could not be retracted by remote or manually. I’ve also read of certain brands of motor homes with breaking motor mounts etc. It seemed in most cases they were huge slide with residential fridges etc in the slide. My PC is a 2011 and I have no idea what brand the slide is or for that matter if one maker of slides is better than another.
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Late to the discussion: In our 2100 the slide is pretty much a requirement. However, if we are ever able to upgrade to something like the 2550 I would skip on the slide. Numerous reasons, including that it would not be unnecessary for the two of us, and a non-slide would be more suited to colder weather RVing. When I go on a snowshoe trip by myself I never extend the slide, going so far as to pack moving blankets around the seal (on the inside) to serve as additional insulation. YMMV.