Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: SEAYALL on June 30, 2018, 08:15:15 am
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Somebody please tell me I’m wrong... did the on line pricing sheet, was interested in a 3100. Vinyl flooring ? Surely not.. what I could of bought from Earl this past March at FMC rally $127k is now $145k.. LS went from 10k to over 14k.
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That sounds about right. They announced a 15% price increase. No idea how much of that is from Ford and how much is Phoenix.
Just as additional info, many of the suppliers where I work have announced 15 to 30% increases due to rise in cost of imported materials such as steel, plastic, pipe, wire and lumber. So this is not a Phoenix only increase. One of our wire suppliers simply stated price will be adjusted per order at day of delivery, no contracts, no bids.
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Thanks... did they go vinyl flooring, instead of wood laminate?
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As best as I can remember the vinyl has always been standard with wood laminate an upgrade. But my memory may be fallible on that.
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Thanks
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Vinyl floor is new this year per PC salesperson. Claims to be waterproof. I would assume wood still available upon request. New floor saves about 100# of weight which is great.
I priced one out too. I was also shocked. The discount was only 20% compared to 26% before. Seems like you could negotiate with them. The salesperson said they are on commission so that means "let's talk" to me.
The 2552 I priced was $125k. Yikes. RV industry may be in trouble.
Ron
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I'm sure recent tariffs you've read about have some effect. Just sayin'. . .
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I'm sure recent tariffs you've read about have some effect. Just sayin'. . .
True that. :beg :beg
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Tariffs were the the givin reason my local metal supplier is now charging $10/foot :beg :'( for square aluminum tubing, 2x2 inch, 1/8 thick wall.
I just used 70 linear feet to brace up the ceiling for my 'Phoenix Carrier' trailer. I had ~65 feet on hand, and just about went into shock when I was quoted $70 for the last 7 foot piece I needed. That was a 'cash-no slip needed' price too... (WH) My last 'foggy memory' of a price on it was about $3/foot a few years ago.
Many, many, feet of that tubing in a completed cruiser.
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So the 20% tariff increase on incoming material translates to a 225% increase in the purchase price for aluminum tubing and such. That sounds about right.....absolutely ridiculous but is the way of business.
It reminds me of what happens with gasoline. The price of crude oil increases a fraction, and the price at the pump increases exponentially within hours. The gas still inside the under ground tanks at the gas station suddenly costs more. But when the price of oil decreases a fraction, it takes weeks for the prices to slowly decrease.
I worked at Motorola Solutions for nearly 40 years, designing two-way radios there for the past 11 years. It bothered me how adding $1 in better material translated to "X" times more for the product. I did my best to design circuit boards using the least amount of copper wiring layers, but I could have designed a much better board for a few dollars more.
That is the difference in how a privately owned company operates versus a stock-held corporation.
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I've noticed Class A units that were retailing for around $150000 are now up to $170000+ with little or now changes.
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If you want a shock take a look at the price of extension cords. I was going to grab another good one to carry in the coach but the sticker shock made me put it very carefully back on the shelf. And not RV cords, just a regular 15 amp cord.
The price increases are not strictly due to the current tariff increases but also to uncertainty. Because much of our material comes from overseas there is a significant time delay between order and delivery. Two of our suppliers have told us they cannot get accurate pricing from their suppliers overseas because no one is willing to quote them on something 2 or 3 months out.
I've also been told that the price increases here in the states are not only because of price increases but because some of their suppliers are refusing to accept orders at any price. So everyone is scrambling to find either local suppliers or alternative (read: much more expensive) sources.
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Well, the good news is this should work its way into the used RV market in not too long a time period. The spread between "new" and "used" has just gotten larger and that can only be positive for good, clean, well maintained Phoenix Cruisers. Of course, that is really only important if you are getting out of the RV owning lifestyle, trading for an older unit than you now have, trading for a trailer and so on. Interest rates have also risen enough to increase the amortization of a loan noticeably higher than one eighteen months ago. That is going to also have a negative impact on buyers eventually.
Given the massive number of Boomer's hitting retirement age that is creating a good demand plus, as we all know, a lot of younger families are really getting into rving.
Paul
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Hadn't the price increase already occured prior to the 10% tariff on aluminum and 25% tariff on steel? Just sayin'.
https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=3083.0
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Tariffs were announced publicly on March 8th. Not sure exactly when the PC increase was announced. But I would suspect most importers well aware of the potential increases well before the public announcement.
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Nothing new really, just a few years ago a farmer friend of mine was ordering new grain bins. He could not get a price till they were delivered due to constant steel price increases. No doubt games with new tariffs come into play but then again what’s good for the goose. It’s ok that Canada charges a 270% tariff on US dairy as one example. Now we have someone who calls BS and I couldn’t be happier. I’ve spent plenty of time in China, they need us every bit and more than we need them. Another example, Airbus is supplemented by multiple countries so they can sell at a loss to undermine our industry. Th recent tax breaks given to corporations helps companies like Boeing, Lockheed etc have a chance to compete and add jobs while doing so. The Middle East gives dang near free fuel to Emirates and the like and within a few years will wipe out all American international competition. What do you think will come of their cheap airfares once they wipe out the competition. Personally I’m tired of us being stepped on and ALL our politicians playing into it.
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I don't want this thread to run off the rails, but can't help but contributing....... 2o2 to your comment. Irene and are 100% in for M.A.G.A.
G.T.
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Joseph (exactly)
Eventually we will get quality goods built by Americans! And they will last , like they used to.
Ron
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Ron your right. Regarding the increase , It is quite a jump in price which adds to the sticker shock when it’s all at once. But let’s face it, how often do prices drop for recreation vehicles of any sort.
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Sarz, Ron , quality goods, my parents first tv , a Zenith tall narrow cabinet that they bought in June of 1955 is Still on the family farm and still works. Why it even came with a channel changer.... wait that was just me when Dad told me to change the channel....
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But let’s face it, how often do prices drop for recreation vehicles of any sort.
I think it would be extremely rare to see MSRP go down in price on the same exact model. I think you would most likely see a higher percentage off MSRP during another severe down-turn in the RV industry. Half off a fortune is more appealing than 20% off a lower priced rig.
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Question really is at what point do they price themselves out of business? I mean it’s a class B
Apple an oranges.. for instance.. a concord loaded same chassis ducted air, air bags $89 K
Scratching my head...
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Getting into a "this coach is cheaper" discussion is rather pointless as finding two coaches exactly configured and specified is impossible. The reality is that at this point in time the line is full, orders are stacked up and all looks good. Will that last? Who knows? All things in a free market correct to various degrees. If Phoenix starts to get fewer orders they will correct in some manner. The industry as a whole is booming right now but will that last? Probably not as supply builds to meet demand.
And not to be picky, but it is not a class B, that is an RV built inside an existing van body. What we have here are class C RV's without the front overhang. Sometimes called a B+ but that is not an official class and most places list these as class C.
PS. We have looked at the Concord's several places and if I remember right they were a nicely built coach, at least the older ones.
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Seayall, they may have already jumped the shark. Not surprising after a company is under new owners. You can buy a Newmar Bay star class a in the same range as the 2552. And as you pointed out the concord for less. But there are many cheaply made units out there as well that you can’t use in comparison. I’ve seen some real poorly made brands. I never throw money away buying toys like rvs boats etc new anyway so new MSRP is something I really don’t pay attention to.
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What’s capacity, maybe 80 per year spread out over 8 models?
Did you know in 2014 Ford announced it will discontinue the E-series cutaway chassis by the end of the decade? If that’s still in the cards then at some point next year everyone may have to stop accepting new orders for E- series motorhomes.
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What’s capacity, maybe 80 per year spread out over 8 models?
I think it is a little more than that. I was told they average 2 per week and the new owners stated they were looking at ways to raise that while maintaining quality levels.
Ford did announce the end of the E-series but sort of backed off on the time frame since there is no viable replacement. But regardless, the handwriting is on the wall: E-series is going away and that will be a major issue for all RV manufacturers. On the other hand I doubt Ford is going sit idly by and watch all that business go to Mercedes.
Curious why the F-450 / 550 is not a possible choice?
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Ford also sells a lot of the E-series for box trucks and ambulances. Killing the E-series cut-away will affect those industries too. I could see them killing the SRW and DRW E350 due to the overlap they have with the Transit cutaway, but I would be very surprised if they terminated the E450.
I owned a Toyota C&C motor home with a pickup truck front. I would not want an "F" Series for the same general issues I had. Getting in back from the front will surely be harder, and I don't want to add another 2.5-3 feet to my rig but gain nothing useful.
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Ron, I didn’t think they would ever kill the town at either. For a while the begging of the livery service kept it afloat but in the end they cut the number one livery car ever built. As witnessed Ford didn’t go begging to Congress to save them. If a product isn’t cutting the mustard in making a certain amount of profit they change the game plan and move forward. So it won’t surprise me if it gets cut. I may be disappointed but not surprised.
I agree that I wouldn’t want a F series in a cab over. However IF ( very big if) I ever come to buying another rig it will be a class A gasser. There are many smaller units available. The one I’d currently be interested in is only a foot longer than my 2552.
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The Ford E-Series full-size van was scheduled to continue production through 2014 to overlap with its replacement vehicle, the all-new Ford Transit. Ford has announced it will discontinue the E-Series cargo van and passenger wagons later this year, essentially coinciding with the debut of the Transit; however, the E-Series will technically continue to produce two other E-Series models (the E-350 and E-450 stripped chassis and cutaway) until almost the end of the decade.
The rugged heavy-duty ladder-frame van chassis, which shares many parts with the F-Series pickup trucks, will continue being produced at the Avon Lake, Ohio, production line as long as demand for small school buses, emergency vehicles, airport shuttles, and recreational vehicles is strong.
Doing a bit more research it appears Ford initially announced that the E-series would end in 2013. However they later amended that to 2014 for vans and "as long as demand is strong" for cutaway chassis. As best I can tell the actual econoline vans were discontinued after the 2014 model year. The official Ford statement is still that cutaways will be made through the end of the decade. After that? Who knows?
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And not to be picky, but it is not a class B, that is an RV built inside an existing van body. What we have here are class C RV's without the front overhang. Sometimes called a B+ but that is not an official class and most places list these as class C.
B+ may have not been a category in the past, but it seems to be defined now.
For what it is worth, the local RV shop here 'defined' a 'B+' as no bed over the cab, but still using a cutaway chassis like a class C. Mentioned that they (B+) are generally a little narrower and shorter than a 'C' , but the bed above the cab seemed to be the 'line' that defined a B+ from a C.
A quick google search has 'Nexus RV' company in agreement -
Viper Class B plus gas motorhomes by NeXus RV are very similar to Class C motor homes except they are built without the overhead sleeping area and they are typically slightly smaller in height and length. They are perfect for customers wanting to downsize and prefer to have a unit that could maneuver easily into tight areas. These products are also built on a cutaway Ford chassis with a V10 engine.
Never was a consideration before we got our 2350, and people asked WHY did we pay so much for an 'old' class C. :lol Now I explain its a different class of camper. :)(:
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.... and people asked WHY did we pay so much for an 'old' class C.
We bought our first motor home, a Toyota/Mirage in 1983 for $12,250 and sold it 24 years later with 107,000 miles in 2007 for $7,600. The right motor home will yield a good price at any age.
We have "NO" plan what so ever selling our PC, but I have wondered what it's street value is.
Book value (KBB private party sale) is not always the right gauge. Sometimes the vehicle is worth more. Within the past month, I sold a 2008 Solstice GXP with 4,000 miles for 30% over value, and a 2002 Chevy Tracker ZR2 4x4 with 22,000 miles for 45% over value.
Now with both sales behind me I can focus on the PC again.
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Ron, and I’m guessing those values fluctuate as well. When we bought ours I called Earl before we flew to the dealer to pick it up. It was just hitting 4 years old with 19,000 miles. Earl told me the price was 10 grand under dealer wholesale. And this was purchasing from a dealer. I missed an even better deal on a 2350 from a private seller when some one got there with cash before me. I’m not looking to change out but if I did, new would not be anything I’d consider.
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Never was a consideration before we got our 2350, and people asked WHY did we pay so much for an 'old' class C. :lol Now I explain its a different class of camper. :)(:
Yeah, that works. I've done the same :)
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If Phoenix sells a few less 3100's because of price competition that just means they can build a few more 2552's, no big deal.
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Take a look at the Airstream Interstate class B. $160k - $175k. There are buyers for all price points and features.
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Take a look at the Airstream Interstate class B. $160k - $175k. There are buyers for all price points and features.
Haha, my neighbor bought one this year and had to travel to get it below msrp. He was so happy with 25% off, still a lot of money for a 24 ft coach with a very cramped interior.
Why anyone would choose that over a Phoenix Cruiser or even an ERA 170M is baffling to me, and the price difference is staggering. But my neighbor thinks it's totally awesome compared to his fully restored fwd 23ft GMC, which also had a stupid floorplan with a wet bath and less usable space than a 2350-s.
If you want to see some funny shiite check out Parkway RV Center's YouTube videos with Big Bo! In one of the Phoenix Cruiser videos he calls small class B' s divorce-in-a-can, and in another one he refers to wet baths as dual-purpose time savers roflol
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The Airstream Interstate was my wife's first choice. Because they are "really, really cute". Nothing else would do so off to the Airstream dealer. She climbed in one, and 30 seconds later climbed back out saying "that's too small". Yup I know, I said. Now look at the sticker price. roflol
We left quickly and started researching other coach makers.
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I see Gulf Stream BT Cruisers for sale below 70,000$. I hear a lot of poor quality stories about Gulf Stream. Any Opinions?
Lynn
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I’ve been seeing another sign of the change out of the E series. Living out here in a resort community there are countless executive limo busses used at the resorts and casinos. Previously they were mostly on the E450, however I’ve been seeing more and more of them on the F-series and today I saw a fleet go by of new units all on the F series. That’s just that much less demand if you will for the E series.