Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: BlueBlaze on May 06, 2018, 07:20:29 pm
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There's been some discussion recently about raising the rear a couple of inches using the Firestone Ride-rite air bag kit.
I just completed the installation on my 2008 PC 2350. (It's actually a 2007 E-350 chassis). The kit is Firestone W217602061. By the way, it's gone up $40 since last fall. It's now $324.46 on Amazon.
Bottom line -- it didn't raise the rear one little bit. My rear wheel wells are 33" off the ground with zero pressure in the air bags, and they are 33" off the ground with 80 lbs. I only have half an inch of overhead clearance on my garage door, and I was able to back out normally, with full pressure.
However, my test was with an unloaded coach. I think the rear sag that everybody complains about must be due to the 400 pounds of water weight sitting nearly on the bumper. In fact, now that I think about it, the only times I've had trouble with the rear dragging something was when I was loaded with a full water tank. So it's very possible that the air bags will keep the coach level when fully loaded. But my coach has the HWH auto-leveling system, which hangs very low, and I was hoping to improve that situation. No such luck.
The system is a LOT tougher to install than the manual would lead you to believe. The manual has you assemble the bags to the mounts before installation. There simply isn't enough room to do that. The shocks are too close to the axle. I had to remove the top mount from the bag and install it loosely. Then, while squeezing the air out of the bag, I just barely had room to get the rest of the unit in place, and it was still a real bear to fit the bag to the top mount. Once you finally get the studs through the holes on the top mount, be sure to torque the nuts down holding the bag to the top mount before you tighten down the top mount to the frame. There is not enough room to get the bag mounting nuts started if you do it the other way. But on the bright side, I did not have to drill any holes to install the top mounts, as some have mentioned.
The exhaust pipe loops over the axle less than 4" from the bag on the right side. They give you one heat shield, which is only enough to shield one side of the loop. I guess I'll have to fabricate another and attach it to the exhaust pipe itself. I haven't solved that problem yet.
You don't have to remove the wheels. It would probably be an easier job if you did, but from what I could tell, it didn't look like the assembly would fit in that way either, so I didn't remove mine. I never feel safe working under a vehicle when the wheels are off. But you still have to jack the frame up a couple of inches to make room to fit the bags in. I used my autoleveler to jack up the rear a little, with a couple of jack stands on the frame for safety.
There is not enough pressure line to run the lines all the way to the bumper. I brought mine out to the sides just in front of the wheel wells, at the top of the bottom skirt. You can avoid the 1/4" section where the body panels overlap on the left side, but not on the right side, because next to the battery compartment it's all 1/4" thick. The valve stems are just barely long enough to work with a 1/4" panel. I had to remove the inner washer to make it work on the right side because my air pump wouldn't depress the pin in the valve stem enough to open the valve.
Short version -- if someone had written this before me, I probably would have saved the $325 and just carried less water. I'm not sure it was worth the money or the aggravation. But we rarely boondock, so we don't really need to carry much water. If you like boondocking, maybe it would be worth it.
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Great info and insight, Thank you! I wasn’t aware of PC having any rear sag, is that a model specific issue?
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Thank You BlueBlaze from me too.
Like you, our model 2350 is built on a 2007 E350 chassis.
Like you, we don't have the added weight of a slide out.
Like you, we have that typical slight rear end sag.
Unlike you, we don't have hydraulic levelers.
Some years ago I had considered Firestone airbags to lift the rear a couple of inches, but like many ideas in my head, it lost momentum. Thank you for your report. I will be interested in reading later when you are on a trip with a full load, if the rear drops or stays in it's current position. I would also be interested to know how the air bags filled with the proper amount of air, affects your ride and handling.
Thanks again,
Ron Dittmer
For the others, this is the sag. Study the picture close and you will see it.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4038/5161179007_8d1fdc6468_z.jpg)
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If the '07 E350’s came from Ford with a rear sway bar maybe that helped prevent the springs from sagging??
My 2350-S has Firestone Ride-Rites courtesy of the original owner. 40 psi raises the bumper about 2”. It didn’t have an oem rear sway bar so I added one from Hellwig .
We travel light and don’t tow, but with 40 psi it rides and handles so nice it’s very easy to forget that it’s a 5 ton truck not a van.
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If the '07 E350’s came from Ford with a rear sway bar maybe that helped prevent the springs from sagging??
My 2350-S has Firestone Ride-Rites courtesy of the original owner. 40 psi raises the bumper about 2”. It didn’t have an oem rear sway bar so I added one from Hellwig.
We travel light and don’t tow, but with 40 psi it rides and handles so nice it’s very easy to forget that it’s a 5 ton truck not a van.
Adding a rear stabilizer bar, heavy duty or otherwise, does not raise the rear. It only stabilizes the rear.
Thank you Cal Cruiser for your input on the effect of the Firestone air bags.
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That is correct, but it also stiffens up the suspension.
Because the Hellwig bar is non-adjustable I was apprehensive that it might mess up the ride, but it did not. I run aftermarket large diameter adjustable bars on my cars and use the soft setting / outer endlink holes so it’s not too stiff for the streets.
Anyway because of your Ron.D suspension thread on the other forum the Hellwig rear bar was the first mod that I did to the 2350 2o2 Now all we need is a big brake kit for the E350 then it’s off to the racetrack haha. I will measure the ride height at the center of the fender flair and post the results.
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If the '07 E350’s came from Ford with a rear sway bar maybe that helped prevent the springs from sagging??
My 2350-S has Firestone Ride-Rites courtesy of the original owner. 40 psi raises the bumper about 2”. It didn’t have an oem rear sway bar so I added one from Hellwig .
We travel light and don’t tow, but with 40 psi it rides and handles so nice it’s very easy to forget that it’s a 5 ton truck not a van.
Well, maybe it'll loosen up on the road and I'll see that 2". So far I haven't been out of the driveway with it. In any case, I'll be sure to hang something from the garage door to remind me to check again that it still clears after our next trip.
While I was under there, I noticed that somebody had installed an aftermarket big blue sway bar, which probably explains why we've never noticed any tail wagging. But I don't think a sway bar has any effect on the sag,
By the way, would you mind checking how or if your previous owner solved the heat shield problem on the right side? Maybe its not worth messing with?
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I am not aware of a blue rear sway bar. But I have a blue rear trac bar along with a silver sway bar as shown. Maybe you have both too.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3308/3508504086_0fcedb0d9e_z.jpg?zz=1)
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WE have the 2100 which has the worst tail sage of all the PCs. We added airbags, but don't know the brand. Was done at an RV shop. The made a significant difference for us. Almost 6" when seriously inflated but it does make the ride a little rougher. When on a lot of rough roads (which we were on in Alaska last summer), air needs to be added. When on highways, we let some out to make for a smoother ride.
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Rheanl ... I’m confused, the lightest PC has the worst tail sag? Is this due to wheel base or the suspension ?
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Thanks BlueBlaze.
I have a 2008 29100 on the E450 and added the Firestone kit last year, with the Airlift remote control and compressor. It makes a HUGE difference on my rig, lift height and ride. I do enjoying the pressure adjustment on the fly as well. I don't know if I could go without it now. ;)
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I am not aware of a blue rear sway bar. But I have a blue rear trac bar along with a silver sway bar as shown. Maybe you have both too.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3308/3508504086_0fcedb0d9e_z.jpg?zz=1)
That's my setup exactly, but I couldn't have told you which was which or how they work. I've been wrenching on my various projects and vehicles for 50 years, but automotive suspension has always struck me as more black art than engineering. If you say the blue one is the "trac bar" that's good enough for me!
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Yes, the shortest PC has the worst tail sag.Maybe Ron D., the resident car guy, can explain, but I cannot give a technical explanation.I think it has to do with ratio of wheel base (which is very short and makes for a great turning radius) to overall length. Also, a lot of weight is in the back behind the rear tires...kitchen, bathroom, fresh water tank, hot water tank, best portion of both holding tanks, fridge, rear storage compartment, and spare tire. We humans can easily compound the problem by storing stuff in the shower (a lot of which I have left by the roadside) and setting things just inside the rear door such as power cord and folding chairs.
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Yes, the shortest PC has the worst tail sag. Maybe Ron D., the resident car guy, can explain, but I cannot give a technical explanation.I think it has to do with ratio of wheel base (which is very short and makes for a great turning radius) to overall length. Also, a lot of weight is in the back behind the rear tires...kitchen, bathroom, fresh water tank, hot water tank, best portion of both holding tanks, fridge, rear storage compartment, and spare tire. We humans can easily compound the problem by storing stuff in the shower (a lot of which I have left by the roadside) and setting things just inside the rear door such as power cord and folding chairs.
RheaNL,
I could not have said it any better. 2o2
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Thank you Ron. High praise from a car/RV expert like you.
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RH,, wheel base makes sense.
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Has anyone put these on a 4x4? Quigley puts a 3" spacer under the springs, I'm assuming a spacer could be added under the air bags, but I have no experience.
Doug
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BlueBlaze, I have to question whether the air bags are properly installed. I had them on a 2005 Dynamax (E450 Ford, B+) and usually ran 30 pounds which raised the rear 2”. 65 pounds would raise it 4” but roughened the ride. As you add air the rear of the coach should rise. You might want to leave all of the air out, have someone crawl under the coach and watch as air is added to figure out why the height doesn’t change as the bag expands. Mine were a big help to the sagging problem and helped with the handling as long as I didn’t go too high on the pressure.
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BlueBlaze, I have to question whether the air bags are properly installed. I had them on a 2005 Dynamax (E450 Ford, B+) and usually ran 30 pounds which raised the rear 2”. 65 pounds would raise it 4” but roughened the ride. As you add air the rear of the coach should rise. You might want to leave all of the air out, have someone crawl under the coach and watch as air is added to figure out why the height doesn’t change as the bag expands. Mine were a big help to the sagging problem and helped with the handling as long as I didn’t go too high on the pressure.
There's not much opportunity to screw it up. They simply bolt on. The bottom brackets are clamped to the axle with U-bolts and the top bracket wraps around the frame and bolts to a hole (the only one) in side of the frame. They are effectively in parallel with the existing springs, not on top of them. So unless the load is significantly depressing the leaf springs, the air bags don't really come into play. Since I haven't had the opportunity to load the rig for a trip, I've never seen how they handle under a load. I'm pretty sure they would raise the rear when it sags from the 400 pounds of water weight on the rear wall, but I couldn't see any measurable change when its unloaded and not sagging, even at the max 100 pounds.
They make different versions of the bags. The double-convoluted bags don't look like they are designed to actually change shape under a load, but merely resist being compressed more as you add more air. Maybe the conical version works the way you describe.
But I'll give it another look this weekend.
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Does raising the rear end require realignment?
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Does raising the rear end require realignment?
No, not in the use that we are discussing- raising the rear of the coach to get back to level.
In the case of wheelchair van conversions like this -
(https://karmanhealth-karmanhealthcare.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/48.jpg)
We often had to adjust caster because the back was higher than stock. It would 'wander' terribly otherwise.
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my 2350 measured 32.5" at 40psi
Blue Blaze - if your 2008 measured 33.0" at zero psi maybe the previous owner replaced the springs or added a leaf to fix the sag.
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my 2350 measured 32.5" at 40psi
Blue Blaze - if your 2008 measured 33.0" at zero psi maybe the previous owner replaced the springs or added a leaf to fix the sag.
I guess that's a possibility, but it still sagged or I wouldn't be looking for a fix. Whatever it is, apparently it's just my rig, or maybe the kit I used wasn't correct for a 350. The part number on the box seems correct, but if the only difference between the e-350 and the kit for a standard econoline van is the size of the bag, there's no way I would know the difference if Amazon swapped it on me. Maybe I got someone else's return.
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I did some more testing this week, after driving it around some. I added air in 10 lb increments, while measuring for a change at the tow hitch. This time I found some change, but it seems to be more because of where I measured it than anything else (it still measured about 33" at the wheel well).
Starting with an empty coach, no water in the tank, and zero psi, it measured 14.0". Every 10 lbs added about 1/8", up to a max of 100 psi and 15.5. 30 psi (the minimum allowed) was 14-3/8". The maximum lift was only 1-1/2".
So then I filled the water tank (to add 382 lbs on the back wall) and tried again.
At zero PSI, it measured 13-5/8" (3/8" of sag). It still added about 1/8" for every 10 psi until I reached the maximum 100 lbs and 15-1/8". So the maximum change was still 1-1/2". (I know those numbers don't add up to exactly 1/8" per 10 lbs, but it's close).
Bottom line -- I simply didn't get any improvement worth the $400 I spent. However I can say that at 40 lbs, it did level the coach to the same height without water, so I guess the bags did what they're supposed to do (just not what I hoped they would do).
I double-checked the installation and could find no errors. The springs appear to be stock, but I'm not sure I could tell if they weren't.
The kit is Firestone W217602061. Maybe there is a different kit that would give a better result. But in any case, I would definitely recommend against wasting your money on this kit if you are looking for improved ground clearance on a 2350 coach. Maybe it would be worth it on a coach with a longer overhang than the 2350's 8 ft, since the leverage effect would increase the rise.
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If you have leveling jacks maybe check if the suspension will extend any further than 33”-34” with with zero weight on the springs??
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If you have leveling jacks maybe check if the suspension will extend any further than 33”-34” with with zero weight on the springs??
There's certainly no hangup there. I actually did this while I was installing them, before I had the air hooked up, to get more room to work on the air lines. When I jacked it until the wheels were off the ground, it extended the suspension so far that the folds in the airbags were gone and made them look like elongated prunes. I realized that was probably very bad for them, and let the jacks back down until they looked normal again.