Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: TzrNPeg on April 03, 2018, 04:44:50 pm
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I'm trying to decide if a Phoenix Cruiser 2552 is the right RV for me. I'm concerned about the size of the grey tank. Most of my camping is dry camping at dog shows. I'm lucky if I have electric. Water is sometimes available and sewer almost never. I can NOT dump the grey water on the ground - I'll be thrown out. So.... how can I handle one or two military showers with a grey tank that small?
I've read that there is a way to equalize the grey and black tanks. Are there 3 knife valves? (one for black, one for grey, and one for both). I can't find a picture that shows me the details.
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Peg
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Hi Peg,
Many PCs have a smaller grey tank than a black tank. Our 2350 has the same situation. It is "extremely" simple to flow 50% or more of the grey tank into the black tank by a simple throw of two switches, the grey tank valve switch first, the black tank 10-15 seconds following. Wait about 20-30 seconds and then close both valves. Since you don't own a PC yet, it will be "foggy" for you to understand. But trust me....you won't have a problem with that matter at all. Irene and I take back to back showers. I shower first. Once dry and dressed, I go out and blend the grey tank into the black tank so she can finish her shower without a shower pan with bath water that won't go down the drain.
If ordering your PC, I advise to pay a tiny bit more to have Phoenix add redundant tank valve switches inside so you don't have to go outside. I hope to be installing redundant switches myself sometime this year in our 2007 2350.
Welcome to the Phoenix forum!
Ron Dittmer
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Thank you so much Ron. It IS foggy, but I guess I'll have to trust. And yes, I'll put redundant switches on my list.
Peg
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We had to disconnect from city water last night due to low temperatures in Elkhart. Three of us took showers in am and did everything else we needed to do without filling the grey tank to capacity.
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I'm trying to decide if a Phoenix Cruiser 2552 is the right RV for me. I'm concerned about the size of the grey tank. Most of my camping is dry camping at dog shows. I'm lucky if I have electric. Water is sometimes available and sewer almost never. I can NOT dump the grey water on the ground - I'll be thrown out. So.... how can I handle one or two military showers with a grey tank that small?
I've read that there is a way to equalize the grey and black tanks. Are there 3 knife valves? (one for black, one for grey, and one for both). I can't find a picture that shows me the details.
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Peg
Welcome Peg!
Mrs V and I use a 2006 2350 for 'boondocking' at festivals. We upgraded from a 1971 VW microbus, so its a palace to us.
New Years festival we could not dump grey at all for 4 days, and had no issues. I am 10th MTN INF US Army, so I know a military field shower... and it is ANYTHING but. Mrs V was happy also. 2o2
We use ~3 gal for a 'field' shower, ~8 for a comfy camper one. I haul the water in 6 gal cans, so i know 'zactly what we use. (nod)
As far as equalizing the tanks... Ron has you there. PLEASE click the 'neighborly' button in his post. ;)
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Our 2017 2552 with full fresh water tank and empty grey and black will give us two showers each. These are reasonable length showers. Not military type.
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Every rv'er needs one of these:
http://www.campingworld.com/bodyspa-rv-shower-kit-white
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Not being used to RVing we had a hard time adjusting to military showers and honestly use way more water than a 'proper' military shower. The gray tank capacity is enough for 2 showers each and some dish washing. However, I have had the gray tank back up in the shower once, but that is a lesson learned.
As Ron explained there is also a method to move some of the grey tank water over to the black tank once which gets you another day perhaps.
We have not done a lot of dry camping yet, but have a trip planned next month into the desert with no hookups. That will be our first chance to really test the capabilities of the tankage as well as the solar.
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Jatrax, consider dish tubs that fit in your sink. We use 3: dirty dishes, wash water, rinse water. When done, the water gets dumped down the toilet and into the black tank (after double and triple checking that no small items are hiding in the water.) Added benefits are the ability to relocate your dirty dishes to make room in the kitchen, the ability to do dishes out at the picnic table, and so on. I'll sometimes clean out the tubs after the wash up and stack the wet dishes in the tubs so I can set them out of the way until they are dry.
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We use a swim suit and the outdoor shower when boondocking. ...or would they consider that dumping grey water? Always use all natural biodegradable soap.
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Thanks 2 Frazzled! I'll pass that tip on to my dishwasher :-D
She is a little apprehensive about no utilities but I've told her we can pack up and go anytime. The house is on wheels after all.
We are heading out to photograph the Alvord desert, which is basically a dry lake bed in central Oregon. Looking forward to seeing how the solar install works over a 2 or 3 day stay with no other power.
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Please update on the solar. We plan to get panels added later this year.
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Please update on the solar. We plan to get panels added later this year.
2 frazzled
My advice on solar is make sure you get a solar monitor like the Bogart.
When I dry camp if we have reasonable sunny days and no shading from trees:
We can watch TV in evening, use all the lights we need and the refrigerator that uses Propane. This uses about 8% of my power. I have 2 -140W arrays and batteries are usually are fully charged by the afternoon.
If it is cold, we use sleeping bags and only run the furnace in the morning until the inside temp is about 70oF. This uses about 4% more. Still no problem getting back to 100% charged.
However, if it's raining or heavy clouds it doesn't charge that much but I can still last 3-4 days without going below 50%, then I use generator or drive somewhere to dump my grey water.
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Please update on the solar. We plan to get panels added later this year.
Will do!
My (limited) experience so far mirrors Keelhauler's. With a little care the two panels should bring things back to fully charged on a sunny day. However, my roof is not as clear as his so I am curious to see how much shadows from the on roof gear will impact things. Also we have a compressor refrigerator so that is going to use a lot more power than a propane one.
Keelhauler when you park do you point the nose due south or something else? My panels are not as well located as yours so I am trying to figure out the best orientation.
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I usually just park the way the campsite was setup, but I do pay attention to shade from trees if there is no power.
I'm surprised that PC now installs arrays but doesn't move the antenna to the back like mine. The handle would be in the bedroom on the 2552 just behind the left wardrobe.
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I'm surprised that PC now installs arrays but doesn't move the antenna to the back like mine. The handle would be in the bedroom on the 2552 just behind the left wardrobe.
I agree with you. Placing the antenna away from the array where you requested, makes lots of sense.
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At the risk of turning this thread into solar, has anyone had experience with only one 150w panel? there was only room for one on my 2350. We'll be heading to Alaska in June.
Thanks,
Jack
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Jack, I'm no solar expert, we are having an independent company do ours this summer. Usually you try and match the solar panel watts to battery amp capacity, or even more watts. Just don't forget you can always carry a portable solar panel. Alaska in June is a great place to be, thats where we are headed next year, not many dark hours either.
Doug
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The long days in Alaska in June should make up for it. We went there putting our RV of 4 different ferry boats in SE alaska in 1994. Had no trouble keeping batteries charged.
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We boondock for several weeks at a time in the Rockies to escape the July and August heat. We bought our 2350 for many reasons but the 35 gallon black tank was a big selling point. Look at the specs on other brands for a length of 23-25 foot coach and mostly you will find smaller tanks. The ability to easily switch and use the black for additional gray can come in useful.
I designed and installed 200 watts of solar on our rig. It is a simple system with no bells and whistles, just a couple of 100 watt Renogy panels from Amazon on the roof, a bit of solar cable and a small controller. After one summer of using this and finding it satisfactory but loving to park mostly in shady areas, I bought an additional 100 watt flexible panel and hook it up with 50 feet of outdoor landscaping cable which simply plugs into a weatherproof receptacle wired to the system and located at the rear of PC. I take that panel and move it around two or three times during the day to accommodate sun and shade location. With this we are usually good for two weeks "off grid". I don't find moving the panel during the day a hassle and kind of enjoy watching the voltage meter I installed jump up (cheer).
Paul
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Just don't forget you can always carry a portable solar panel. Alaska in June is a great place to be, thats where we are headed next year, not many dark hours either.
We utilize a folding solar panel named "50W Complete Kit Folding Portable Solar Panel Off Grid 12V Camping Home Caravan". Which we have found has enough capacity to keep our single 12v RV battery charged during a week of boondocking. Granted, solar panel's 3 amp output is not going to do the trick if you're running heavy use through an inverter. Still, there is something to be said for being out 10 days and not needing to start the generator in order to bring the up the battery's charge. One reason for selecting this solar panel was due to their size. Which takes up minimal space, even in our 2100.
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Some years back I seriously considered going solar. Our 2007 2350 roof can accommodate one panel easily, two panels if I change our crank-up Winegard antenna to a current-day fixed antenna. What shut me down about the idea was that we always seek shaded campsites when shade is available, rendering solar technology ineffective when needed most. I would consider the remote setup that Cropduster uses, but really wanted a hands-off relationship with solar given our on-the-move style of RVing. Setting up a solar array at the camp site seems ideal if staying stationary for extended periods.
Who knows, maybe I will wake up one day and decide to go solar, maybe when the industry perfects solar technology with thin roll-out, cut-to-fit, stick-down array method, covering our entire white roof with a single sheet. That would be interesting if it pumped out lots of watts at an affordable price.
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What shut me down about it was that we always seek shaded campsites when shade is available, rendering solar technology useless
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Ron, good point. Portable solar means we can position the panels where they will catch the most sunlight. However, I have noticed that the panels will generate electricity even during cloudy conditions. On a particularly cloudy day I measured an output of 25% of the max. Which I suppose is respectable. If the solar panel manufacturers can create panels which utilize perovskite as well as silicon, it will capture more of the light spectrum and significantly increase the panel's output. I am hoping those will eventually reach the market.
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Ron, they have solar panels that stick down. I was talking to Kermit at one of the rallies a few years back and he mentioned they had an order to put them on a rig. I told him I hadn't kept up with the industry for many years but last I heard, they got so hot they were setting roofs on fire. He made a phone call and I never heard anything else about it.
It's been a while so it may be worth a look to see if solar people figured a way to resolve that issue. Kids at the solar decathlon one year decided to go for the silver lining and installed stick down solar panels on metal roofing with their water pipes underneath so the intense heat from the solar panels provided their hot water.
Side note on solar: as mentioned a few places on the forum, shade (or dirt or leaves) on one tiny piece of one panel will drop the entire array to match the cell with the lowest gain. UNLESS you have the panels wired parallel instead of in series. Then blocking one cell only affects that one panel. Think of old Christmas lights; in series, one bulb goes out, breaks the circuit, no lights work... but parallel wiring skips that bad bulb and the current continues to flow to all the rest of the bulbs. There are a lot more considerations that I can't speak intelligently on... Yet. Since John finally agreed to solar, I need to learn.
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While I find it odd that the black water tank is so much larger than the grey and I would have done it "opposite", the fix is rather simple. Simply TEE into the grey water drain line, AND a black water vent pipe a foot or so above floor level, put a cheap 12v water pump in-between, and Bob's your uncle. That allows you to pump the entire contents of the grey into the black, not just a "50% draindown" as using the dump valves will give you.
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Zorba said
the fix is rather simple. Simply TEE into the grey water drain line, AND a black water vent pipe a foot or so above floor level, put a cheap 12v water pump in-between, and Bob's your uncle. That allows you to pump the entire contents of the grey into the black, not just a "50% drain down" as using the dump valves will give you.
That gave me a thought, here is a no cost no mod option.
We already have a good pump the macerator. Just hook up a 25' 3/4" water hose to macerator outlet and run the hose to your roof, take off the blackwater vent cap, insert the hose and pump what you want into your blackwater tank. I'll try it out the next time I'm getting too full.
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The fact is, if you look at the floorplans, you will see that Phoenix uses only 2 sizes of waste tank. 19 and 35. The 19 is always mounted on the driver side and the 35 is always on the passenger side. So depending on where your toilet and shower are located that's what determines which tank is black and which is grey. The exception is the 3100 where one tank is 50
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Thanks all for the replies on solar - I think I'll bo OK. I had rain, rain, back from the factory, and my one panel still charged the batteries, while "dry" camping in wet!!!Jack
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The fact is, if you look at the floorplans, you will see that Phoenix uses only 2 sizes of waste tank. 19 and 35. The 19 is always mounted on the driver side and the 35 is always on the passenger side. So depending on where your toilet and shower are located that's what determines which tank is black and which is grey. The exception is the 3100 where one tank is 50
I am no authority on this, but understand it as follows.
For most PC models in the shorter lengths, the two tanks used in PCs are 23 gallons mounted on the passenger side, and 35 gallons mounted on the driver side, I assume because the deeper outdoor storage compartment is desired on the passenger side and the shallow Sanicon system on the driver side. In every situation the toilet "absolutely must" be placed near the black tank so poop gets into the tank by gravity, not relying on water because so little water is used. So, with the two tanks in fairly "fixed" positions under the house, the floor plans are designed around the limited positioning of the toilet. I also assume the inlet into the black tank is cut out rather than molded in so there is some flexibility with the relationship between toilet and tank. I would have thought Phoenix would have come up with floor plans placing the toilet over the smaller tank to make it the black one on the passenger side. But then maybe the floor plans would have become undesirable. Also, having the black tank closest to the dump is most desirable to avoid a poop blockage in a lengthy drain pipe.
PCs in the longer lengths have more flexibility with tank positions and sizes for obvious reasons, having more room under the rig to work with.
That is my understanding, but I surely could have it all wrong.
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Actually, in my 2015 PC2551 the 35gal black tank sits inside the frame on passenger side thus avoiding the slide out storage.
The 23 gal grey water tank sits on the driver's side outside the frame and is narrower and shorter.
My particular unit was one of the units they tested the turbo sanicon on. My sanicon is an engineering prototype. In any event... If you look at the floor plans vs where the toilet sits, you will see if the toilet is on the passenger's side, or middle inside the frame, the black tank is 35 Gal, When the toilet is on the driver's side.. the black tank is only 23 Gal.
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When the toilet is on the driver's side.. the black tank is only 23 Gal.
Very interesting observation rendering my previous comment inaccurate. But your comment included in this post of mine....On model 2350, the toilet is on the driver side and the black tank is 35 gallons. So we both got things half right, or half wrong, ha, ha. The wonders of forums discussions. Don't believe much of what I post. :)
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When the toilet is on the driver's side.. the black tank is only 23 Gal.
Very interesting observation rendering my previous comment inaccurate. But your comment included in this post of mine....On model 2350, the toilet is on the driver side and the black tank is 35 gallons. So we both got things half right, or half wrong, ha, ha. The wonders of forums discussions. Don't believe much of what I post. :)
According to the current floorplans, the 2350 has the toilet with just a thin wall between the bed and the toilet. Thus, the toilet sits right above the black tank which sits mounted just inside the chassis frane on the passenger side. Which is exactly where I said the 35 gal tank is. If you sawed a 2350 in half top to bottom, the length of the vehicle... The toilet is on the passenger side. That's the current floorplan. No idea if that's different than your floorplan.
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Interesting!
I will have to crawl under my 2350 and see if it matches your description. Either I have been wrong all along, or Phoenix reconfigured the 2350 tanks since 2007.
BTW, my toilet does not go directly down into the tank. If I open the toilet valve and look inside, I cannot see into the tank. There is a gentle curving pathway, but solids will get there via gravity. That might be an indicator of things changed.
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Keelhauler, your idea is creative, If a coach has a sanicon, and a black tank flush system, why not just screw the sanicon into the black tank flush system? Flush the black tank with grey water and reduce the level in the grey tank. Seems like a simple clean manageable solution, maybe I'm missing something?.
Doug
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Keelhauler, your idea is creative, If a coach has a sanicon, and a black tank flush system, why not just screw the sanicon into the black tank flush system? Flush the black tank with grey water and reduce the level in the grey tank. Seems like a simple clean manageable solution, maybe I'm missing something?.
Doug
That may even be better, need to try that first. That would be a great way to do it.
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I think the only draw back, and there might be more, is how sophisticated is the flush system? I envision the inlet pipe to be open ended inside the black tank. If it has been necked down, or if they have made a manifold with small spray jets, grey water particles might plug it. A simple filter at the end of the sanicon would solve the problem.
Doug