Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tall Guy on March 27, 2018, 09:05:05 am
-
Well, last Friday we pulled the trigger on a 2552. The main non standard things we had done was to put in the slide from a 2551 to give an 80" driver's side bed and also added the motorized option to that side giving me some added width too. This also gives my 68" wife a nice amount of room on the other bed. We also had lights put on the outside rear and driver's side for ease of hooking up and finding things after dark. Two solar panels also went on the roof. If there is room on the roof (Earl wasn't sure with the solar) we'll upgrade to Max-air fans.
One thing we learned is that if anyone is on the fence with ordering DO IT THIS WEEK!!! A 15% price increase hits April 1 any orders done prior to that will still be honored even if delivery is well after the increase date.
We still have time to add more modifications, any suggestions? 90+% of our camping has been and will continue to be where electric is not available.
Thanks everyone!
The Tall Guy, aka Gary
-
Congratulations on being a future owner of a 2552. We have a 2016 model 2552 that we bought new and has served us well. Since you intend to use it in areas without electrical hookup by relying on solar panels I suggest that you have a battery monitor installed. It not only allows you to monitor voltage but more importantly it allows you to know how much power is being put in the battery from shore power, alternator, generator, and solar panels and also how much is being used by the various electrical appliances in the coach. It provides you the number of hours available at current electrical demand before reaching 50% battery charge (battery life is significantly shortened by discharging below 50%). The Bogart Trimetric and Victron are two popular monitors neither are cheap (approx $150) but are well worth it if you depend on your solar system. I have the Victron unit that I have used for about 5 years (removed from a previous camping trailer and installed in PC) and would be lost without it. These monitors are also very useful in trouble shooting electrical issues as they provide a quick means of determining the current (amps) various appliances are using which you can compare that with what is normal.
As for the MaxxAir fans I have three of them. I did not want or need the roof mounted luggage rack which allows the MaxxAir installation in the bathroom. Having used Fantastic fans on previous campers I much prefer the MaxxAir fans. The AC is too noisy so as much as possible we will use all three fans and only start up the AC as a last resort. They also have a built in rain hood which allow use of the fan while raining without the need to add an additional cover.
-
Are the battery monitors something I need to install later or can the factory install one for me. I thought Earl said there is a monitor that comes with the solar panels, is it not detailed enough?
-
Since I had a monitor when I ordered the PC I had Phoenix install the current shunt because it was easier during the build. I installed the actual meter after I picked up the PC. If I had not already had the monitor system I would have asked Phoenix to provide and install.
I am not familiar with the solar controller Phoenix is providing ( I provided and installed my own) but I do not believe it provides the essential information that is provided by the Victron or Bogart units. It is critical that the monitor allows you monitor current (amps) going into and withdrawn from the batteries. It should allow for continuous integration of amp hours used from and replaced into the batteries in order to provide a reliable estimate of the battery state of charge (SOC) zero to 100%. Ultimately what you are interested in is how much charge is in the batteries and how much is the charge being used and how much is being replaced. I may be wrong but I think the standard Phoenix controller monitor only looks at the performance of the solar panels/controller and it’s output terminal voltage. Hopefully, others here that have the Phoenix supplied solar controller/monitor will correct me if I my assumptions are wrong.
-
Are the battery monitors something I need to install later or can the factory install one for me. I thought Earl said there is a monitor that comes with the solar panels, is it not detailed enough?
The little panel that comes with the solar only shows the activity of the solar array. And (at least on mine) they installed in the stairwell so low you have to lay on the floor with a flashlight to read it. Not all that useful.
If you spend time off-grid a real battery monitor is extremely useful (IMHO = required). Phoenix installed the Trimetric one on my rig: TM-2030-RV (https://www.solar-electric.com/bogart-engineering-tm-2030-rv-battery-monitor.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1-fVBRC3ARIsAIifYOM5zj2GGGqpOa5L-odTDyw4Wc15JjJ2cOFf9jAt67cOBue_Tk6eJjsaAvT2EALw_wcB) It can be done after delivery but it is much easier to have Phoenix do it. This monitor watches your batteries, not just the solar so you can get an accurate reading on how much power you have available at any time.
At the time of my install Phoenix was using a Samlex Solar 'kit' with all the parts in the box. Not what I would do if I did it myself as there are better panels and better controllers available, but there are far worse ones as well. Overall, it works, I did not have to do any of the install and I'm satisfied. But if you are really, really serious about solar have it done at a pro shop like AM Solar in Eugene, Oregon. But that is going to cost a lot more and require a trip to Oregon, or to someplace else that does pro RV solar work. In short the Phoenix installation is "good enough" for most but might not satisfy someone who wants the absolute best performance. Personally I am happy with mine, except for the ridiculous location of the solar monitor panel. Ask them where they intend to put it and see if it can go up to eye level someplace so you can actually use it.
OR, and this is what I wanted done (but it did not happen): get the Trimetric TM-2030-RV monitor and the Trimetric SC-2030 solar charger. They integrate and use the same display. Look up the info here: SC-2030 (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/solar-charger.html) This would replace the Samlex charger that comes with the kit Phoenix uses.
-
Congrats Gary! 2o2
Our 3100 started production on the 19th of March. We put 1 1/2 years into the thought process of what we wanted, including customizations. It's an exciting time when you finally get the order done. The waiting is the difficult part.
-
Perhaps to answer your question regarding the installation of a battery monitor this link https://youtu.be/tuiwotyx3Wg
shows the installation of a Victron unit. As shown the monitor system includes a current shunt, a monitor readout, and interconnection cables. While not overly difficult to install after the PC build the mounting of the shunt and battery wire connection is simpler during the build. If whatever reason PC pushes back on installing a monitor you could install later or as Jatrax stated employ the services of an RV solar installer.
https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2489.0;attach=3902
This shows my Victron readout in the front of the kitchen base cabinet. The shunt is mounted in this same cabinet near the location of the two 6 volt batteries (underneath the kitchen sink).
-
If you are really interested in solar and off grid camping try reading Handy Bob. https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/
Handy Bob is .... opinionated, I guess. And I don't agree with him on everything 100% but he knows his stuff, he lives it every day. it's likely more than you wanted to know but if you have the time read it through. just keep in mind he goes only with the best solution, not necessarily the most cost effective.
-
Interesting way to gain longer bunks. PC offers a 6 inch extension which is the way I went. it gives us a little more cabinet space. Other than that, I would have them Install a higher dome in the shower. I am 6'3" and had to bend over in the demo model. Ours with the higher dome works well. I would also have dual pane windows installed. Quieter, warmer in cold and cooler in heat. Also, window awnings. We do not like the loud AC so with dual pane windows, awnings and two Max-Air fans going, we rarely use AC. Wow, 15% increase. They better have some great cabinet latches. I just traveled from PA to Phoenix and back to TX enroute home and have gone through five. Only have one spare left.
-
Congrats Tall Guy!
I would suggest adding insulated windows to your build sheet. The extra insulation can only help when off-grid. We have the rear and driver exterior lights too; they are really nice!
Steve
-
The RV Bible, 'Are you RV Ready' (Author:J. Boyer) has an excellent discussion of possible RV solar options. I found his narrative on solar and batteries to be particularly helpful.
-
We also had lights put on the outside rear and driver's side for ease of hooking up and finding things after dark.
The Tall Guy, aka Gary
Great decision Gary! I wished I thought of that 11 years ago back in 2007 when ordering our PC.
One thing you will want to ask....where exactly is the driver-side light getting mounted? If it is on the stationary wall next to the slide out, the slide out will shadow 50% of the light. Another thing to watch out for is to make sure the light does not interfere with an individual window awning. I read someone else had trouble with their driver-side porch light preventing them from installing a highly desired window awning there. Get that all understood up front so no surprises pop up at the point of no return.
I installed a pair of 6V AGM batteries and I really appreciate their performance and no-maintenance. Ask Phoenix what the up-charge would be to have them. Maybe someone else will support my AGM comment, maybe not. Going solar might be a bad mix with AGM, but then again might be ideal....something to discuss with people who know....I surely don't know.
-
Ask Phoenix what the up-charge would be to have them. Maybe someone else will support my AGM comment, maybe not. Going solar might be a bad mix with AGM, but then again might be ideal....something to discuss with people who know....I surely don't know.
AGM and solar are fine, they are what I have. But they are not the most cost effective by any means. That would be a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries. But I'm not sure if they fit in the standard Phoenix battery tray. The huge plus for AGM is that they are maintenance free and can be mounted on their sides if desired. Otherwise there are other batteries that work as well and cost less.
And you need an AGM deep cycle not just an AGM to be competitive with other deep cycle batteries. They use the AGM technology for starting, marine and deep cycle batteries so just saying AGM does not tell the whole story.
Lead acid batteries regardless of whether they are AGM or require watering are pretty simple and the only real difference is the style and weight of the lead plates. A good deep cycle battery will have heavy thick plates, while a starting battery will have more but thinner plates. A marine/deep cycle battery (the normal RV battery) is in the middle. The best and cheapest are 6 volt golf cart batteries called GC-2, not because they are anything special but because they are deep cycle and sold by the pallet load, so very common and easy to find. Costco and Walmart usually stock them. But they have to fit the battery tray and they require maintenance.
The upcharge for AGM in my coach was significant, around $400 if I remember right. But they are Trojan true deep cycle AGM.
-
I will be picking up my 2552 on Monday. I added Lifeline AGM batteries as aquick recovery and maintenance-free option to the standard coach batteries.
-
The upcharge for AGM in my coach was significant, around $400 if I remember right. But they are Trojan true deep cycle AGM.
I wonder how much better your Trojan batteries are over the $360/pair Sam's Club Duracell GC2 AGM (https://www.samsclub.com/sams/duracell-agm-golf-car-battery-group-size-gc2agm/prod3870119.ip?xid=plp:product:1:3:) that I installed 3 years ago.
-
I have been using solar on 3 RV's over a 14 year period.
Here are my observations and recommendations.
Jatrax is correct, use a monitor which actually measures the current in and out of the batteries.
6V deep cycle batteries work best, standard lead acid are fine and cost effective. You must add water about every 2 months. If you can't do that, pay the extra for AGM. They offer no more benefit for capacity or life. My Trojan T-105 batteries that came with my 2012 PC are still working fine, but I NEVER go less than 50% charge as monitored with my Trimetric.
I had PC install all the parts except the arrays and had them move the antenna so no shadowing of arrays where I mounted on front.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/2552SolarInstallation.jpg)
I had them put the Trimeric where I could read it near awning switch.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/RVBogartPanel.JPG)
My charge controller is mounted near batteries, nothing to read out. But I like my EMS control down low so when I plug my power in I can read from outside of my RV when I open the door.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/EMS_ChargeCntrl1.jpg)
Here is what my wiring system looks like with EMS and solar installed.
(http://keelhauler.org/RV/2552ElectricalSystem_All.jpg)
-
Mine are probably not better at all Ron. You have the golf cart batteries I was talking about. I was not aware they were available as AGM, but likely that is the best combination of 'deep cycle", ease of maintenance and cost you are going to get. I checked some current pricing (which is all over the map so these are just quick averages). Looks like around $129 each for regular GC2 and $199 to $225 for the AGM version of GC2. AmpHours run around 225 for the regular and 230 to 250 for the AGM. Many people report $99 GC2 batteries at Costco when they run a sale.
The regular flooded batteries provide about the same power but at a lower cost. The AGM versions have the maintenance free advantage and slightly higher AmpHours. Cost per amphour clearly goes to flooded, but for many (myself included) the maintenance free part makes the AGM worth the extra cost.
Note that my somewhat smaller AGM batteries run to 205 AmpHours. The pair result in a 205 AmpHour battery pack @12 volts with 100 AmpHours usable allowing for a maximum discharge of 50%.
Did you have to make any modifications to your battery tray to allow yours to fit? As I understand it the GC2 is a bit taller than the regular battery used by Phoenix.
-
Mine are probably not better at all Ron. You have the golf cart batteries I was talking about. I was not aware they were available as AGM, but likely that is the best combination of 'deep cycle", ease of maintenance and cost you are going to get. I checked some current pricing (which is all over the map so these are just quick averages). Looks like around $129 each for regular GC2 and $199 to $225 for the AGM version of GC2. AmpHours run around 225 for the regular and 230 to 250 for the AGM. Many people report $99 GC2 batteries at Costco when they run a sale.
The regular flooded batteries provide about the same power but at a lower cost. The AGM versions have the maintenance free advantage and slightly higher AmpHours. Cost per amphour clearly goes to flooded, but for many (myself included) the maintenance free part makes the AGM worth the extra cost.
Note that my somewhat smaller AGM batteries run to 205 AmpHours. The pair result in a 205 AmpHour battery pack @12 volts with 100 AmpHours usable allowing for a maximum discharge of 50%.
Did you have to make any modifications to your battery tray to allow yours to fit? As I understand it the GC2 is a bit taller than the regular battery used by Phoenix.
Hi jatrax,
Thanks for the details.
About my battery tray......
My rig is a 2007 model year. The batteries of the period were two flooded 12V batteries hooked up in parallel. 6V batteries whether flooded or AGM are much taller than 12V and their foot print is also different. To make room for the taller Sam's Club Duracell GC2 AGM (https://www.samsclub.com/sams/duracell-agm-golf-car-battery-group-size-gc2agm/prod3870119.ip?xid=plp:product:1:3:) batteries, I had to ditch the slide-out battery tray and install a steel plate directly onto the compartment framing. I then cradled the batteries with bolt-on "L" brackets so they would not move around. Removing the front "L" bracket allows the batteries to slide out from the compartment. My 6V setup would be horrific to check flooded battery fluid levels, hence the decision to go with AGM technology. Doing so, I had to change my Tripp-Lite inverter from the "flooded technology" setting to the "AGM technology" setting by relocating a jumper from one position to another inside Tripp-Lite inverter. That took just a few seconds once I learned what to do.
I wrote a post about the 12V to 6V battery conversion project with pictures HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2092.0.html).
Pictures of my original battery compartment before the modification can be reviewed HERE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37432012@N08/albums/72157622075091526) when I added a 1/4" thick rubber shield between the battery compartment and rear tires. Back in those days the batteries had no protection from rear tire splash.
Ron Dittmer
-
Thanks Ron! I am good with my batteries for a few years, 4 to 5 I hope, but I definitely will go with the ones you have when I replace them assuming they will fit. I'm not sure I want to give up the sliding battery tray.
I carry a Viair Tire Inflator (http://www.viaircorp.com/portables/400p-rv-auto/) and that requires using jumper style cables directly on the battery. So having the tray slide out makes attaching the cables a lot easier. Would be nice to have a few extra AmpHours though.
But maybe in 5 years they will have Lithium or some other technology to the point that it will be competitive with lead acid.
-
Since 2012 the sliding tray that PC supplies is designed to hold two GC2 or two T-105 deep cycle batteries. The 2006 2551 had only one battery on their sliding tray.
-
jatrax,
Phoenix had to have increased the vertical height within the battery compartment in recent years to accommodate taller 6V batteries, yet retaining the slide out battery tray. I wonder how they achieved it? My 12V battery tray shown below has a height differential of exactly 1". Did Phoenix reduce the height of the 6V tray to something like 1/4"? Even if they did, it's not enough by itself. I wonder where they got the rest of the room. The bottom-most part of my battery compartment framing hangs below the battery door by exactly 2-1/8". If yours is lower, that could be where they got the extra height from.
Sorry Tall Guy for going off topic.
Ron Dittmer
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/41077135611_35bfb3476e_z.jpg)
-
No worries for going off topic Ron, if I can learn something I'm all for it even if it's "off topic".
Thanks to all for the input, I've made several notes to discuss with Earl. Keelhauler, where did you get your solar panels from? Did you install them yourself? Were the Phoenix offerings not what you wanted? Would Phoenix have installed them for you?
Next Thursday we're leaving for our last vacation with the truck we affectionately call "The Big Dude". Gonna be kinda bittersweet, we've had a lot of good times in it but are looking forward to our upgrade!
Thanks again!
Gary
-
Thanks to all for the input, I've made several notes to discuss with Earl. Keelhauler, where did you get your solar panels from? Did you install them yourself? Were the Phoenix offerings not what you wanted? Would Phoenix have installed them for you?
In 2012 PC did not offer solar panels.
I bought everything from https://www.altestore.com/store/ (https://www.altestore.com/store/)
Kyocera Arrays.
PC installed all the parts, including wiring but I installed the arrays. They will not do that now, I heard.
Arrays were simple just bolt down 2-1" aluminum angles/per array to roof using self drilling SS screws, Lots of Di-Cor.
The angle on the panel then bolts to the angle that was bolted to roof.
On all 3 RV's never had a leak.
-
Phoenix had to have increased the vertical height within the battery compartment in recent years to accommodate taller 6V batteries
Ron, I'm not sure but my battery tray looks identical to yours with the same 1" of clearance. I actually measured about 7/8" at the edge but it's 1" in the center where you measured. Maybe it hangs a bit lower? Not sure.
I also checked my batteries and they are GC2 size. They are marked T-105 but it appears that is the Trojan number but the dimensions are exactly the same as what is listed for the Duracell ones you have. So we both have identical size batteries. Your Duracell is rated at 230 AmpHours and my Trojans are rated at 225 per the spec sheets. So mighty darn close.
The batteries are 10.5" deep and the battery tray is about 13" deep so a slightly larger battery could fit. There is a GC12 that fits those dimensions exactly but when pushing the battery slide home I'm not sure whether the GC12's would hit into the wiring on the rear bulkhead. Something to check someday.
-
jatrax,
I know what you mean about crushing the wires in back. I have a decent gap behind my 6V batteries which I utilize to get the cables well dressed, not kinked.
Interesting that I had to sacrifice my 12V battery tray to get enough 6V height clearance, but others with 6V batteries, it's all good as-is. There must be something we are over-looking. Oh well.
Ron Dittmer
-
You are overlooking the fact that PC just lowered the whole tray to give more vertical height.
I convinced them in 2012 that 6V batteries were better, they started to put them in all units. Up to that time it was an option whether or not you wanted 6V batteries.
So the change is ground clearance. The tray is closer to the ground.
-
You are overlooking the fact that PC just lowered the whole tray to give more vertical height.
I convinced them in 2012 that 6V batteries were better, they started to put them in all units. Up to that time it was an option whether or not you wanted 6V batteries.
So the change is ground clearance. The tray is closer to the ground.
That is what I thought they had to do to make it work.
The bottom of my battery tray framing measure 2-1/8" below the battery door. Does your framing hang lower? Or did Phoenix change the door to cover more of the under-hang?
Here is my under-hang, picture not taken at the best angle to see the entire 2-1/8" under-hang. What is seen is the steel plate battery compartment floor I added that rolls over the edge covering some of the framing.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7676/17119981508_8d3f33972c_z.jpg)
-
Does your framing hang lower? Or did Phoenix change the door to cover more of the under-hang?
Yes, No
-
I just talked to Earl and upgraded to the max-air fans (2) and added the Trimetric TM-2030 and SC 2030. Earl said there wouldn't be an issue with shadowing with the d-side external light. Our original build which I didn't detail included the insulated windows and AGM batteries.
We've decided to store it outside on either a cement or limestone pad for a couple years and then probably build an open ended carport type shelter over it as time and $$$ allow.
I've gleaned a lot by reading this forum for the last couple of years, thanks for everyone's help! Next comes the waiting time and then the first hand learning curve.
Gary
-
I know what you mean about crushing the wires in back. I have a decent gap behind my 6V batteries which I utilize to get the cables well dressed, not kinked.
Short side track; the first thing I did upon arriving back at home with the new buggy was crawl underneath armed with a bunch of cable ties and electrical tape. Dangling/floppy wires, battery cables, chafe points, and other potential problems were secured or wrapped. The wiring set for the black/gray water valves was routed through a pretty jagged-edged hole in the fiberglass. I slit a piece of plastic tubing and created a grommet for the hole. Chafing, whether on dock lines, electric lines, or body parts, is never good!
Steve