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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Volkemon on December 05, 2017, 07:07:22 pm

Title: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 05, 2017, 07:07:22 pm
Howdy!

Proud new owners of a 2006 2350 with a slide and power couch. Few water leaks, and of the 'environmental' sort, not the potable/pressured water system.

Leaving the slide extended during a rainstorm we did get inside water soaking the carpet. Easily explained, it was a driving wind that caused it. I could see the droplets using a flashlight.

During pre purchase inspection, the dealer said the upper right marker light had leaked. They had replaced it, and re-did the headliner. It was a tad damp whenI did the pre purchase inspection, but was also a humid morning so not out of line. I could also see some black urethane sealant slopped here and there, and assumed a windshield replacement.

Well... the morning after we got it home, the DEW fall caused a 'puddling leak' on the center console and drivers floor.  :beg doing a quick hose check, I found a generous leak. Ouch.

Turned out there was rust  (from faulty/inefficient primer and paint from Ford...)  that caused holes to form under the glass windshield trim. The dealer did a half-fast  roflol repair on it, and never checked the work. Or did, and didnt give a rats derriere.  I stripped the trim off the glass, and sealed the entire gully with black urethane. No mo leaks.  :-D

The right rear corner of the coach shows a leak, by wall staining and mattress staining. It has yet to be damp since we have had it, however.

The 'mystery' leak is the lower step of the doorway. the wood there was 95% rotted away, so i cleaned it thoroughly and put some cardboard under the linoleum to be a 'tattle tale.

I did see this water on pre purchase inspection, and was told that the sink drain had a leak that caused it. The fix would require the drain to be re-sealed. Not a big deal, I was comfortable with that task. Turned out the drain is fine. I did have to rebuild the sink faucet, however.  f'n salesmen..

Well.. wasnt the faucet either.   :'( ... any rain (but not dew! ) will soak the forward part of the lower step, and seems to be up the carpet also. Staining on the carpet reflects this also. Not sure where this is coming from. I have yet to do a good 'hose check' however, and will report back after i do.

We are running a dehumidifier on its own cord to dry the coach, and it works well. I live in a humid area.  (nod)

Anyone else have stories/advice on rainwater leaks into the coach?

Thanks!

 
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jatrax on December 05, 2017, 07:13:05 pm
Wow, I think you have the record!  The step one is what concerns me the most especially if you cannot find where it is coming from.

I have had water come in the slide when parked in the rain, but discovered I had done a poor job of leveling and the rig was clearly 'downhill' away from  slide.  So water that blew onto the top of slide ran into the rig and dripped onto the floor.  It then ran all the way back to the rear of the coach and soaked the rug in the bathroom.  Totally my fault and I will do a better job of paying attention to the level in the future.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: ragoodsp on December 05, 2017, 08:14:04 pm
Volkmen..I agree 150% with Jatrax that the step leak is your greatest concern for rot  will start very fast.  Water can come from anywhere  but we all know it runs down hill and therefore ends up on the bottom step.  I would look around the awning anchors to see if there might be some leakage coming in around some lags or where the awning remote wire comes thru the wall.  I would go up from there to see if there is not a separation somewhere on the roof?  Best of luck.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 05, 2017, 11:59:55 pm
I too have never heard of such a significant exterior leak.

Since I have been under my own 2007 2350 sink a few times, I do know of a few places where water might be coming from.

1) The kitchen faucet water hot and cold water lines connected to the PEX plumbing lines is done with threaded hand-tighten plastic fittings.  They might have worked them self loose over the years causing a small leak when water pressure is present.  Reach up behind the sink and make sure they are tight enough.
I took this picture years ago when I had my faucet out for another reason.  It shows the threaded hand-tighten fittings and their proximity to the counter top.  They have plastic tabs like wing nuts for you to grab better.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4546/24000181937_26afe6554a_z.jpg)

2) The hot water heater's 110V heating element is screwed in on the bottom of the tank very close to the floor.  It has a big rubber washer that represents the kind often used on oil filters.  That rubber washer might be cracked creating a leak, or the heating element may have worked itself loose.  You get to the heating element by removing the vertical wood panel in the cabinet under the sink.  WARNING!  even though the hot water tank is drained from the outside, 1/2 gallon of water remains in the hot water tank.  So when removing the 110V heating element, out pours 1/2 gallon of water.  Either siphon the water out through the outside drain plug, or place piles of old towels around the area to absorb the water, and do it a pint at a time.
Here is a heating element showing the rubber washer placed to the side.
(https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/fbc401cc-40c9-4eb4-a125-d2c09ca8bbe8/svn/rheem-protech-water-heater-parts-sp10874fh-64_1000.jpg)
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 06, 2017, 07:15:24 pm

I have had water come in the slide when parked in the rain, but discovered I had done a poor job of leveling and the rig was clearly 'downhill' away from  slide.  So water that blew onto the top of slide ran into the rig and dripped onto the floor.  It then ran all the way back to the rear of the coach and soaked the rug in the bathroom.  Totally my fault and I will do a better job of paying attention to the level in the future.

Yep. We had a driving rain from the east, and it was readily apparent why/how the leak happened. Probably why ""real"" houses dont have slides.  :lol

Glad it was a driveway lesson, gives me a heads up for life on the road.  2o2
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 06, 2017, 07:24:10 pm
Volkmen..I agree 150% with Jatrax that the step leak is your greatest concern for rot  will start very fast.  Water can come from anywhere  but we all know it runs down hill and therefore ends up on the bottom step.  I would look around the awning anchors to see if there might be some leakage coming in around some lags or where the awning remote wire comes thru the wall.  I would go up from there to see if there is not a separation somewhere on the roof?  Best of luck.

Thanks!!

We have no awning anchors, nor wires with our manual awning. We have a Fiamma 45i sun shade on there, pretty sure its original. I am impressed by how flimsy it is..  :beg and it is going to be replaced with an awning that will weather the storm. We go to festivals, and being a dry spot for other campers to tent under can be helpful. Plus I want 'all weather' shelter.

I hope to do a hose check soon, and I do work 'bottom up' when doing so. Prolly why the dealer I got it from replaced a marker light for a windshield leak.. they started at the top with the hose.

I have been up on the roof a few times, and it appears to be in good shape. *Just* starting to show the fiberglass in the FRP. I plan on a full coating as time permits.

Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 06, 2017, 07:37:40 pm
I too have never heard of such a significant exterior leak.



Thank you Sir!

We did have a potable water leak in the coach, the toilet valve. Since repaired.  2o2  I can leave the water system 'up to pressure' for a few days with no leaks. Thank you for the info, maybe others that follow will find their problem.  (exactly)

This coach has not had a good life, appears to have sat for a while, and does suffer from the rear cap contacting something... a bollard? maybe.. that did damage. Little elephant in the room I neglected to mention. I feel it was the source for the right rear water leak.

Certainly NO reflection on poor workmanship causing the leaks. We got this camper at 25% the cost of a new one. I knew it had...'character' and history.  :cool   
Compared to many all of the class C's we looked at, this coach is tight as a tick. Good job PC!  tymote Should the loverly Pattie and I ever be in a position to be buying a new camper, Phoenix Cruiser is on the top of our list.

The bottom step is currently clean, and has some fresh cardboard to detect leaks. We are expecting rain the next few days. I will be monitoring this leak, and watching for others. I plan on making this coach better and better.  ;)



Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jimmer on December 06, 2017, 09:14:31 pm
Volkemon,  persistance and a positive attitude will  get you far with your rig.    Keep us informed on how this turns out.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 07, 2017, 08:34:00 am
Hi Volkemon,

Getting a 2006 2350 for less than $25,000 is a very good deal, even considering the issues you are dealing with.  I rarely see a 2350 that low for a model year 2004 or newer.  As jimmer stated, your positive persistence will yield a very good long term relationship with your PC.  Hopefully you will address your issues quickly and transfer your energy into home "improvement" and actual travel.

Please keep us posted along the way.  Being a long term owner myself with a plan to own for over 35 years total, I am particularly interested in things to watch out for as the years pass.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: magnumiii on December 07, 2017, 08:44:07 am
 On my 2017 2552 they installed the door  Crooked causing a gap on the hinge side so that it would not seal, the lower step would get water buildup on it. PC has a Thicker seal that goes around that door and that fixed my problem of the water leak.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 08, 2017, 08:07:56 am
Volkemon,  persistance and a positive attitude will  get you far with your rig.    Keep us informed on how this turns out.

Thanks! I have found the harder I work, the luckier I get.  :lol

 
Getting a 2006 2350 for less than $25,000 is a very good deal, even considering the issues you are dealing with.  I rarely see a 2350 that low for a model year 2004 or newer. 

Thanks Ron!  Pattie found this coach after months of searching, but we were getting a bit down about the little things. We paid $25K on the nose after registration, etc. It was a bit over our comfort level for our first RV, but I am feeling better and better about the fact that we got a quality rig to work on. 

Rain is forecast for tonight, and I am going to have the lower step exposed to bare metal, and the carpet peeled up on the 'forward' side of things. I think we will spend the night in there, so when it POURS we can be on the scene.

Pattie just agreed. Driveway camp out tonight.  heartshower
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jimmer on December 08, 2017, 07:44:45 pm
Who needs campgrounds anyway  !    ((hug))             Sounds like a party !             
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Denny & Barb on December 08, 2017, 09:34:51 pm
please check the cap caulking.  That is where mine leaked down the front windshield.   
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 09, 2017, 03:47:02 am
please check the cap caulking.  That is where mine leaked down the front windshield.   

We had a BIIIG leak there, was in the 'trough' behind the windshield trim. 99.9% sure thats watertight now, been weeks. Did not check at the moment, but the floormats hold any leak from there as evidence.

3:30 AM report.

Raining HARD right now. Water leaking from the door-to-frame seal, can see drips heading down. Step flooded, but carpet is dry, so I am inclined to think it is coming from the door to frame seal and/or frame to coach seal. Coach is tilted right side (passenger side) low by ~1 inch and 'uphill' edge of step is dry.

Right rear corner leaking, pulled the mattress up so it wouldnt get wet. Can see water coming in, not flowing but a wet spot growing. This is from previous damage, and I know I will find the rear storage flooded also. It drains well luckily. Couple boxes stored in there exposed the leak last time. 

A/C dripping from condensation all over the trim/outlets. we used it ~7 hrs.  Appears not to be rain leak, just condensation. A/C has been replaced before our ownership. I realize that we humans are 'humidifiers'  :lol but I did not expect water drops/dripping from the A/C  >( . Will see in the morning if carpet is wet. A/C is off and wiped dry.

We bailed. Inside now. SO SO SO glad this was a driveway test. we would be trying to sleep on the couch with the slide in otherwise. Would NOT be happy campers. M'lady is not pleased as it is now.

 

Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 09, 2017, 08:03:16 am
You learned a lot overnight.

A 2006 entry door is the same one used in a new 2018.  It sounds like you should order the thicker main entry door seal from Phoenix.

If any water is coming in between the main entry door frame and the wall, that would require caulking.  Look for cracks in the existing caulk.  Many seams are trimmed off with a 3/4 x 1/8" plastic trim and caulked on each side, but between door frame and wall I think it's a single seam.  Also check the tiny rain gutter across the top of the door, making sure it is clean and sealed properly against the wall.

I am curious about your rear exterior wall damage.  Could you post a picture of it?  You have me wondering how deep the impact went.  It sounds like it affected the rear structural interior wall.  You mentioned the rear compartment gets wet but has good drainage.  Are you referring to the large rear under-bed storage compartment?  Or the shallow rear storage compartment integrated into the rear wall?

When we visited Phoenix a year ago, walking the factory floor I recall seeing a unit being built.  It was about to have the exterior fiberglass rear wall installed.  Oh how I wished I had taken pictures there.  If your interior rear interior wall is compromised with water getting inside on the bed, the proper repair might include removing the exterior fiberglass wall to repair the interior wall.  If that is your situation, you might want to call Phoenix for an estimate to have them repair the body damage.  They will be able to replace your fiberglass exterior rear wall if the damage to it interferes with a proper repair.

Phoenix is now under new ownership so what I am about to say might be different.  But maybe 6 years ago, someone bought an early model year PC with rear wall damage resulting in leakage.  Phoenix removed the rear wall, made proper repairs, and put it all back together like brand new for around $3000.  For you, being the slowest time of year it is in December for Phoenix, you might be able to schedule such a dramatic repair.  It might take them a day or two to get it done.  As well, Phoenix will know how to deal with your entry door leak and water damage.  Provide them with pictures to help them provide accurate estimates.  The cost might be worth the ride out and back and the few days spent there.  Nobody knows how to repair a PC better than Phoenix, and nobody has the right spare parts in stock like they do.  Though their hourly rate has increased, they are also dang efficient at doing the repairs costing you fewer hours of labor.  If our PC was in a significant accident causing water infiltration like you describe, Phoenix would be my place to run to.

Concerning the dripping of water inside your PC from your brand new roof a/c unit, that does not sound right to me.  Something is wrong there.  I suspect the new a/c seal (or reused original seal) is deformed or seated improperly, allowing rain water and/or condensed water from the a/c unit back inside.

Call Phoenix.  Get some prices from them.

I have an unrelated question.  I assume your 2006 PC-2350 is built on either a 2005 or 2006 Ford E350 chassis.  Do you know what a stabilizer bar looks like?  If so, look under your rig and see if you have one for your rear axle.  You won't unless the previous owner installed one.  Also check your front stabilizer bar.  The Ford stock front stabilizer bar, the ends of it go into holes inside the front lower suspension.  If you see any gap between the bar and the end rubber grommets (I suspect you will) your front bar is worn.  Installing heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars will be well worth the extra investment for driving safety and comfort.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,155.0.html)  to read more about it.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2094.0.html) to read how to check your own suspension.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 09, 2017, 11:22:30 am
Replies nested in the quote below, in red.

You learned a lot overnight.

:lol Yes we did.

A 2006 entry door is the same one used in a new 2018.  It sounds like you should order the thicker main entry door seal from Phoenix.
Maybe so. The one on there is in decent shape, but I dont like how it was installed.

If any water is coming in between the main entry door frame and the wall, that would require caulking.  Look for cracks in the existing caulk.  Many seams are trimmed off with a 3/4 x 1/8" plastic trim and caulked on each side, but between door frame and wall I think it's a single seam.  Also check the tiny rain gutter across the top of the door, making sure it is clean and sealed properly against the wall.
The door frame looks like a flush mount to the wall outside, with a small bead of silicone sealant I suspect has been added later. The tiny rain gutter is there, with no 'gaping voids' but missing the front gutterspout.

I am curious about your rear exterior wall damage.  Could you post a picture of it?  You have me wondering how deep the impact went.  It sounds like it affected the rear structural interior wall.  You mentioned the rear compartment gets wet but has good drainage.  Are you referring to the large rear under-bed storage compartment?  Or the shallow rear storage compartment integrated into the rear wall?
Pictures coming. Its ugly up close, but not  :beg on a casual look. I think it was major, tearing off the rear cover on the right rear judging by the crack in it, and the poor shape of the covering trim over the seam.   :'( It got us a ~$2K reduction on the price. The leak is in the shallow rear compartment, although I have not checked the underbed yet today. It is still lightly raining, and bitter cold (for Florida.. I may have to put on a shirt!  roflol ) Pictures coming ASAP.

When we visited Phoenix a year ago, walking the factory floor I recall seeing a unit being built.  It was about to have the exterior fiberglass rear wall installed.  Oh how I wished I had taken pictures there.  If your interior rear interior wall is compromised with water getting inside on the bed, the proper repair might include removing the exterior fiberglass wall to repair the interior wall.  If that is your situation, you might want to call Phoenix for an estimate to have them repair the body damage.  They will be able to replace your fiberglass exterior rear wall if the damage to it interferes with a proper repair.

Phoenix is now under new ownership so what I am about to say might be different.  But maybe 6 years ago, someone bought an early model year PC with rear wall damage resulting in leakage.  Phoenix removed the rear wall, made proper repairs, and put it all back together like brand new for around $3000.  For you, being the slowest time of year it is in December for Phoenix, you might be able to schedule such a dramatic repair.  It might take them a day or two to get it done.  As well, Phoenix will know how to deal with your entry door leak and water damage.  Provide them with pictures to help them provide accurate estimates.  The cost might be worth the ride out and back and the few days spent there.  Nobody knows how to repair a PC better than Phoenix, and nobody has the right spare parts in stock like they do.  Though their hourly rate has increased, they are also dang efficient at doing the repairs costing you fewer hours of labor.  If our PC was in a significant accident causing water infiltration like you describe, Phoenix would be my place to run to.

I agree 100%. It is an option.

Concerning the dripping of water inside your PC from your brand new roof a/c unit, that does not sound right to me.  Something is wrong there.  I suspect the new a/c seal (or reused original seal) is deformed or seated improperly, allowing rain water and/or condensed water from the a/c unit back inside.

I suspect the same. It will need to be removed and inspected/resealed. After the dry-off last night, and even more rain, it is dry on the A/C and carpet below.  2o2

Call Phoenix.  Get some prices from them.

I have an unrelated question.  I assume your 2006 PC-2350 is built on either a 2005 or 2006 Ford E350 chassis.  Do you know what a stabilizer bar looks like?  If so, look under your rig and see if you have one for your rear axle.  You won't unless the previous owner installed one.  Also check your front stabilizer bar.  The Ford stock front stabilizer bar, the ends of it go into holes inside the front lower suspension.  If you see any gap between the bar and the end rubber grommets (I suspect you will) your front bar is worn.  Installing heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars will be well worth the extra investment for driving safety and comfort.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,155.0.html)  to read more about it.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2094.0.html) to read how to check your own suspension.

I have read both the links you reference, and many others here from you. I am one who 'lurks' for some time before posting to avoid repeating questions.
I am familiar with renewing the end link and frame bushings on the sway bar, upgrading to graphite impregnated 'urethane to avoid creaks and squeaks. Are you saying the bar itself wears out or the bushings? I have seen them bend to be unusable, but never 'wear out'
Rear sway and track bar, oversize front bar, shocks and airbags are all on the wish list as we intend on towing a trailer on festival outings. Not currently budgeted, however.  :-[  



Ok, looking out at the pond, rain has stopped for now. More checking to do. Pictures too. Thanks for the support.

Oh... the windshield leak is solved.  heartshower Dry and dusty up there.   2o2
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 09, 2017, 12:02:34 pm
Alrighty... PICTURES!   :-D

Ok.. seems like the pictures dont show on preview  >( , so i will try to caption them in order..

1) Right rear corner
2) closeup of top right rear, showing crack in cap that leads me to believe it was folded back. Top sealing looks like it has had a few tries. Seam cover trim is VERY wavy.
3) top left of door gasket. It does contact the door, but I am not happy with the fit and wrinkle on the corner.
4) Water in lower step area. I have not dried it out yet today. The wood was rotted to bits, so i removed the debris to help the area dry. The steel has surface rust, but is still sound.
5) crack on the floor of the small rear compartment, further evidence the rear cap was peeled back a bit.
6) the floor of the small rear compartment, outer corner. There is evidence of white caulking repair, and a big gap that lets the water out.
7) Underbed compartment carpet dry as a bone.  2o2 The door itself seems to hold water, however. Looks like it gets in between the outer skin and the outside trim. When I opened the door, all this water came down the inside of the door. I may have to seal between the outer skin and the edge trim.

There ya go folks, todays report.  :-D We are taking the camper tonight to a concert, it will be the 'tailgating' base camp for several friends. NO rain forecast.  2o2 

I need to get it leak free by new years, we will be in it for 4-5 days then.

* Checked front sway bar, frame bushings look fine. I forgot it was the 'Twin I Beam' front, so no end links. Just the bushed hole on the lower arm. Fair condition, I have seen them 'metal to metal'.  I have put ~550 miles on the coach since buying it, I commute 60 miles a day and used it a few days and i use it to do errands to build operator experience. Had a few near misses parking it... its a bit bigger than my old microbus.  :lol But all in all, I have been happy with the handling.
 



Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 09, 2017, 01:06:57 pm
At a glace the rear wall does not look bad, but like you say, when studying it closer, it appears the rear wall had pulled away.  I suspect a previous owner clipped a tree maneuvering the rig in a camp-site.....a very common owner error.  I assume the rear wall ripped away from the inner wall, screws and all.  The repair appears to have involved pushing the wall back into position and attached it in a less than ideal manner.  If you plan to own the rig for a long time, I advise to have Phoenix install a brand new wall and be forever done with the matter.  If you are like many people here on this forum who change motor homes frequently, then try your best to reinforce and increase the attachment points around the area of damage, and get the seam in proper alignment so the finish trim is straightened out.  Being in Florida, you might have a skilled local boat repair shop that can handle it all in a proper manner.  But watch out for the cost of repair.  They may charge nearly as much as a brand new wall installed by Phoenix.

About your storage door holding water in between the inner and outer skins.  I just looked at my 2007 2350 under-bed outdoor storage compartment door.  It has 3 weep holes  maybe 1/8" x 1/4" in size, perfectly manufactured.  They are along the bottom edge located outside the weather strip so collected water drips out onto the street.  Make sure your holes are free and clear of debris.  Maybe some original manufacturing dust and fiberglass bits have plugged up your 3 holes.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 09, 2017, 02:21:17 pm
At a glace the rear wall does not look bad, but like you say, when studying it closer, it appears the rear wall had pulled away.  I suspect a previous owner clipped a tree maneuvering the rig in a camp-site.....a very common owner error.  I assume the rear wall ripped away from the inner wall, screws and all.  The repair appears to have involved pushing the wall back into position and attached it in a less than ideal manner.  If you plan to own the rig for a long time, I advise to have Phoenix install a brand new wall and be forever done with the matter.  If you are like many people here on this forum who change motor homes frequently, then try your best to reinforce and increase the attachment points around the area of damage, and get the seam in proper alignment so the finish trim is straightened out.  Being in Florida, you might have a skilled local boat repair shop that can handle it all in a proper manner.  But watch out for the cost of repair.  They may charge nearly as much as a brand new wall installed by Phoenix.



Your diagnosis agrees with mine.  :)(:
I would do the repair myself if PC does not do it. I am familiar with polyester resin and epoxy resin fiberglass construction/repair. The biggest hurdle I face is sourcing the seam cover. Tough item to ship.


About your storage door holding water in between the inner and outer skins.  I just looked at my 2007 2350 under-bed outdoor storage compartment door.  It has 3 weep holes  maybe 1/8" x 1/4" in size, perfectly manufactured.  They are along the bottom edge located outside the weather strip so collected water drips out onto the street.  Make sure your holes are free and clear of debris.  Maybe some original manufacturing dust and fiberglass bits have plugged up your 3 holes.

Just checked, there is one at either end on the underbed, 3 on the rear. All clear.
But that allowed me to see how they are made. Pretty simple- to disassemble, take out the four runner corners. Then the 4 aluminum locking pieces. This will allow the 'guts' to slide out, it looks to be aluminum sheeting sandwiching 3/4" polystyrene foam.
SO good to know for two things...
1) I can properly seal the lids using a bead of clear silicone before assembly.
2)On the back hatch, the support strut to the outside got ripped off the lid. I can see several tries for a repair that have failed. Its a holy spot.  roflol (Picture below) I can add some wood backer block in this area when i have the door apart.  2o2
Also just noticed... in that pic you can see the rubber corner, the aluminum lock strip in the upper left... and the missing lock strip on the strut mounting side. On to the 'parts needed' list it goes.


OK, and ANOTHER water leak found. This one from the outside shower unit.

In the inside picture, note the reflection in 'Lake Commode'  :lol of the drain pipe. The line of drips across the bottom of the outside shower unit made it an easy diagnosis.
 
Looking at the  outside picture you can see it pulled away from the wall a slight bit... that soaked the shelf in the bathroom.

The shelf is dished from previous water leaks there, guess I overlooked that on inspection.  >(
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jatrax on December 09, 2017, 09:18:58 pm
Quote
Call Phoenix.  Get some prices from them.
Very good advice.  And considering the price paid for this coach putting a few grand into it to have it professionally repaired and brought up to snuff seems well worth it to me.  Of course it is easy for us to spend others money, BUT we are talking about water leaks which are the #1 enemy of any RV.  A few grand now might save you a lot more in the long run.  Or at least give you a nice comfortable motor home you can enjoy instead of constantly worrying about.

I'll second Ron's thoughts on the A/C dripping as well.  That does not sound right.  It could be just condensation but I doubt it.  We have had our A/C run for many hours in very damp conditions with no condensation.  If I understand how A/C units work your interior air should be dryer not more humid if it is being run.  Of course maybe you have so much water coming in from the leaks that that is causing the condensation.  Still I would not just assume it is only condensation.

Another thought, since there appears to be rear end damage of some sort is whether anything else is bent.  Have you had it aligned yet?  Checked the tires for abnormal wear?  Not trying to cause alarm but if impact damage is suspected then the whole rig should be inspected thoroughly to make sure nothing else was damaged.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 09, 2017, 09:42:19 pm
I have an unrelated question.  I assume your 2006 PC-2350 is built on either a 2005 or 2006 Ford E350 chassis.  Do you know what a stabilizer bar looks like?  If so, look under your rig and see if you have one for your rear axle.  You won't unless the previous owner installed one.  Also check your front stabilizer bar.  The Ford stock front stabilizer bar, the ends of it go into holes inside the front lower suspension.  If you see any gap between the bar and the end rubber grommets (I suspect you will) your front bar is worn.  Installing heavy duty front and rear stabilizer bars will be well worth the extra investment for driving safety and comfort.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,155.0.html)  to read more about it.  CLICK HERE (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2094.0.html) to read how to check your own suspension.

I have read both the links you reference, and many others here from you. I am one who 'lurks' for some time before posting to avoid repeating questions.
I am familiar with renewing the end link and frame bushings on the sway bar, upgrading to graphite impregnated 'urethane to avoid creaks and squeaks. Are you saying the bar itself wears out or the bushings? I have seen them bend to be unusable, but never 'wear out'
Rear sway and track bar, oversize front bar, shocks and airbags are all on the wish list as we intend on towing a trailer on festival outings. Not currently budgeted, however.  :-[  

The front Ford stabilizer bar end bushings (also called grommets) is what wears and does so very quickly.  The steel stabilizer bar itself is severely under-rated for the full load of a motor home, rendering it nearly ineffective.  Add the end rubber grommet wear and it's a decoration.

Making this clear for the other readers here....If you have a 2008 Ford chassis or newer, you have a better front stabilizer bar design direct from Ford.  Your bar is still under-rated for the load of a motor home, but your end links are not rubber grommets and don't have the quick-wear issue.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 09, 2017, 09:57:14 pm
ANOTHER water leak found. This one from the outside shower unit.  In the inside picture, note the reflection in 'Lake Commode'  of the drain pipe. The line of drips across the bottom of the outside shower unit made it an easy diagnosis.  Looking at the  outside picture you can see it pulled away from the wall a slight bit... that soaked the shelf in the bathroom.  The shelf is dished from previous water leaks there, guess I overlooked that on inspection.
Boy oh boy, the surprises keep coming.  I feel for you.  Hopefully you can tackle each issue with successful permanent results.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 10, 2017, 09:12:15 am
The front Ford stabilizer bar end bushings (also called grommets) is what wears and does so very quickly.  The steel stabilizer bar itself is severely under-rated for the full load of a motor home, rendering it nearly ineffective.  Add the end rubber grommet wear and it's a decoration.

Making this clear for the other readers here....If you have a 2008 Ford chassis or newer, you have a better front stabilizer bar design direct from Ford.  Your bar is still under-rated for the load of a motor home, but your end links are not rubber grommets and don't have the quick-wear issue.

I certainly admire your perseverance in concerns about the swaybar.  We are not currently operating the coach at anywhere near max GVWR. Guessing 500# cargo, 1/2 full freshwater, empty waste tanks. Full propane.
We did ~150 miles last night going to a show and back. Left late, realized we forgot a major food item  :beg, then left even later after returning home to get it.... we are now in a hurry driving a motorhome.  roflol

Very pleasant experience.  :-D :-D The handing of that coach is excellent. We kept 80-85 MPH down most of the interstate hwy travel. I followed whoever was going faster than us. Little bit of high speed tire imbalance, but nothing objectionable considering. VERY gusty winds coming from '2 O'clock' and '5 O'clock'. I was very happy with the handling, and the MOST important judge, Mrs V, was very comfortable.  2o2 went back to the kitchen to portion out desserts we were giving away later. She had no idea we were not doing 65.

For ~20 miles down US1, it was 3 lane jam packed traffic, close quarters, and 45-60 mph. Mrs V commented a few times about how happy she was that I was driving.. I think she was expecting us to 'kiss mirrors' a few times with other trucks. I have a lot of seat time in box trucks, 15-25 foot, and some in dump trucks, so I am pretty comfortable driving this coach. With wind, traffic and our speed, again I was pleased with the handling.

Parked in a small office lot, amazing a few onlookers as I slid in with the coach.  :-D I love that short wheelbase. My buddies F350 is 23' 'bumper to ball hitch' but wont go near where this baby slides in. My habit of using ALL the steering available also gave me an airbag code 34, prolly the clockspring.  >( Not surprising. Troubleshoot it later.

In 3 weekswe have our first festival, going for 5 days/4 nights. We will be a bit heavier in the coach, and probably with a light trailer.  (under 2K# gross) I will see what difference that makes im my opinion.   (nod)   But for now, I am very pleased with the handling the coach is giving me in its present form.

Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 10, 2017, 09:19:55 am
ANOTHER water leak found. This one from the outside shower unit.  In the inside picture, note the reflection in 'Lake Commode'  of the drain pipe. The line of drips across the bottom of the outside shower unit made it an easy diagnosis.  Looking at the  outside picture you can see it pulled away from the wall a slight bit... that soaked the shelf in the bathroom.  The shelf is dished from previous water leaks there, guess I overlooked that on inspection.
Boy oh boy, the surprises keep coming.  I feel for you.  Hopefully you can tackle each issue with successful permanent results.

Well, this leak I really should have forecast.. the shelf is warped, I can see the gap outside on the panel..  :-[ So it really sorta funny. Little stress.

 It is dry season here... soon. (We did get 2 3/4 inches measured fri-sat however) I will be sealing up. And taking pictures. We have a festival in 2+ weeks.

Its messy stuff, but I am thinking of using 'urethane sealant for this. Any thoughts on what I should re-seat/reseal things with?
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 16, 2017, 06:12:35 pm
Polyurethane it is.  2o2

Major leak fighting today. First off, removed the cover from the seam on the back cap. The last person fixing things added several screws on the bottom...and didnt do so much on the top.  :beg Found several spots where the retention strip was off the surface by 1/8 inch. And there was a huge gap up top. I removed the trim between the rear cap seam and the underbed luggage door. There was a 'goober' of glue there that was impressive!  :lol  Anyhoo, I am VERY glad I pulled it off, as the seam has water leaking into it, and just a matter of time before the screws rotted. Sealed the seam and all the screwheads, then put the trim back on. I put it on upside down and drilled new holes BEFORE gooping everthing up. I wanted good threads for the screws, put new stainless screws in.  (nod)

Pulling the horizontal seam trim off turns out to be another key to the leak mystery...stay tuned!   :)(:





Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 16, 2017, 06:22:29 pm
Remember the step leak?

I did. I had to scrub the entire cab top down before waxing. Taking a break from being upside down scrubbing, I started to do a hose check on the side door. Worked my way up, but found no water leaks that were unexpected. At the top corner the seal isnt quite right, and does leak. But this causes rolling drops down the inside of the gasket, which exit outside. Not in on the step.

Back to the main job, scrubbing down the passenger side bodywork I had a lot of water going above the horizontal seam trim. Just forward of the coach door.  And I could see from the white 'drools', it was disappearing somewhere..  :beg

Picture -8545 shows he water droplets behind the trim. They had a perfect path in to the step, and to the front where it always got wet first.

Sealed it up today. I think that might be the leak on the step.  heartshower    2o2 2o2
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 16, 2017, 06:27:51 pm
Got the potable water tank fill door sealed, and the utility shower access sealed. New stainless screws in also.  2o2

Might be near the end of the leak tasks..  (nod)
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 16, 2017, 06:54:53 pm
From everything you are showing, previous repairs were done extremely poorly.  You seem to be doing a meticulous job at getting everything taken care of as best as possible.  Doing it right = doing it once.....and looking good too.
 2o2

Keep up the good work.  It will be well worth it in the end.  Or should I say... well worth it for a new beginning.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jimmer on December 16, 2017, 10:19:54 pm
Thanks for the taking the time to illustrate and report back all you've done here !         You da MAN,    Volkemon  !
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: fandj on December 17, 2017, 08:46:33 am
Volkemon, thanks so much for your narrative and photos on what you found.  Fortunately I haven’t had any leaks so far (knock on wood) but I am paranoid about this occurring.  Even though my unit is only about a year and a half old I frequently inspect the roof caulking and have touched it up to try and stay ahead of any issues.

One area of concern i have is where the roof and sides mate up with the front and rear fiberglass end caps.  I see on the sides in your photos this is where you found areas where water was getting in.  Is this just a simple U channel that snaps over the seam or how is it retained?  As you mentioned several screws were used are they just screwed in to the outer fiberglass skin or do they depend of the Luan plywood interior panel for their anchor?  Since I have not seen this splice joint disconnected other than your photos and I am a little confused as to how it supposed to work.  Any clarification you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 17, 2017, 10:42:54 am
Volkemon, thanks so much for your narrative and photos on what you found.  Fortunately I haven’t had any leaks so far (knock on wood) but I am paranoid about this occurring.  Even though my unit is only about a year and a half old I frequently inspect the roof caulking and have touched it up to try and stay ahead of any issues.

One area of concern i have is where the roof and sides mate up with the front and rear fiberglass end caps.  I see on the sides in your photos this is where you found areas where water was getting in.  Is this just a simple U channel that snaps over the seam or how is it retained? 
The front and rear caps lap over the side panels. On the rear cap, it appeared that the cap was pop-riveted every 6 inches or so to the body panels. There is a metal track that then was riveted on top of the seam, with rivets that barely went through both layers below. The trim you see on the outside clpis on to the metal track, hiding it. 

 As you mentioned several screws were used are they just screwed in to the outer fiberglass skin or do they depend of the Luan plywood interior panel for their anchor?  Since I have not seen this splice joint disconnected other than your photos and I am a little confused as to how it supposed to work.  Any clarification you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

The screws on the rear cap seam were all added in a previous repair that was done rather poorly. They anchor the surface track into the rear cap and side skins similar to the original pop-rivets. Before my ownership, It would appear that the rear corner hit something. With a new, undamaged coach I wouldnt worry too much about those seams.
 


Have to run right now, but I will be doing some searching on where to get the track and cover trim. *Might even be a factory item still available! 

The biggest leak I would worry about is the trim covering the wall to lower skirt seam. This unsealed area was funneling water into the doorstep of my coach. We will see what the next rain shows... 
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 18, 2017, 06:24:49 am
Ok... the metal base trim that screws/rivets to the coach is very similar (if not identical) to this -

(http://www.all-rite.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/5/m53insert.jpg)

source - http://www.all-rite.com/aluminum-moldings/trim-moldings/m53-5-8-base-cap-trim

and then there is a Vinyl cover that goes over it-

(http://www.all-rite.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/100vinylcap_1.jpg)

Source - http://www.all-rite.com/screw-covers-and-trims/100-vinyl-cap

NOT exactly what is on the coach now, this product is a but more 'rounded off' on top.

The cover snaps right over the track after it is attached to the coach. Covers the screws/rivets from weather.

AND available in 250 foot rolls...I can get pieces long enough to eliminate the seams on the top of my coach.  2o2 Just have to measure to make sure it fits the existing base molding on the coach from the factory.


The sealing process i used was to put a healthy bead of 'urethane between the coach and the metal base, on both sides. Then when I snapped the cover on, it caused some 'bulging' of the excess sealant, which I then worked to a smoother transition. Hopefully a weather tight seal!  :-D
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: CalCruiser on December 19, 2017, 02:25:58 am
Call Carol at Phoenix USA for your oem parts needs.   It's not quite as simple  as ordering Winnebago parts, but Carol is there to help and the parts are priced fairly. No need for  reverse engineering.

I had a VW before too (Winnebago Rialta) and finding parts and service for that teutonic pos was like owning an antique car, something you don't do unless you are mechanically inclined and enjoy working on projects, but really should not be driving  on adventures  to Anytown USA.

After you get the damage to your 2350 all sorted out you will be very happy Cruising with the Blue Oval 2o2
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: jimmer on December 19, 2017, 07:25:20 pm
Hats off again to you,  Volkemon,  for your determination and resourcefulness in figuring out the challenges you had  with your rig.   
The information we all post here adds up to a  resource so many of us can access at any time for our own particular problems when they arise.
Hopefully you have many trouble-free miles once you get things all sorted out !
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on December 20, 2017, 05:49:43 am


I had a VW before too (Winnebago Rialta) and finding parts and service for that teutonic pos was like owning an antique car, something you don't do unless you are mechanically inclined and enjoy working on projects, but really should not be driving  on adventures  to Anytown USA.


Well... we were VERY close to getting a Rialta, but lucky for us good sense and a lot of research saved us.

Owning an antique car... YEP!  I daily drive a 1971 VW bus 60+ miles each day for work, and it was my 'RV' along with its flat trailer. I do have the 'mechanically inclined' thing working for me. Mrs V has a 1981 VW Westfalia camper also. How we met.  heartshower

We are both happy with the 2350.  2o2
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 20, 2017, 10:25:20 am
Volkemon, You were the right people to rescue that PC.  2o2  Keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on January 14, 2018, 02:56:03 am
WooooHoooo!!!


Update.


Camper no longer has the 'musties' when one opens the door.  2o2 

Floor rejuvenation is ongoing, and the carpet removal told me a story.

pic 9081 shows the 'Cascading' rust line. I found the water entering the step area was getting in from an unsealed floor/lower skirt seam. since sealed.  (nod)

Pic 9082 shows the carpet that was removed from that area. One can see the progression of the water as it leaked in. Was DRY AS A BONE when removed today.    (cheer) 2o2  (cheer)

I will be pulling out the step filler wood and the paper layers between during a current project. I *HOPE* to find no evidence of water intrusion. YES!!

(http://oneappsgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fist-pump-baby-oh-yes.jpg)



 
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Ron Dittmer on January 14, 2018, 09:28:44 am
I find it amazing how such a minor water leak at the lower skirt can do so much damage.  Not just water but also mold.  Fortunately it is in a confined area that is non structural and relatively simple to resolve.  This should be a warning to the rest of us.  If water is getting inside somehow.  Don't delay in finding the cause.

Imagine the water damage and mold that often occurs in a typical class C in the cab-over bed area.  You had a small confined area, they have it in a massive area.  I don't know how people deal with the mold while ignoring the problem.

You are doing great there volkemon.
Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on January 16, 2018, 07:27:17 pm
I find it amazing how such a minor water leak at the lower skirt can do so much damage.  Not just water but also mold.  Fortunately it is in a confined area that is non structural and relatively simple to resolve.  This should be a warning to the rest of us.  If water is getting inside somehow.  Don't delay in finding the cause.

 (nod)

Imagine the water damage and mold that often occurs in a typical class C in the cab-over bed area.  You had a small confined area, they have it in a massive area.  I don't know how people deal with the mold while ignoring the problem.

We looked at a few.

You are doing great there volkemon.

Thank You!   :)(:



UPDATE!!


RE: Step leak.


The coach has been through 3+ inches of measured rainfall since I installed the tattletale paper in the step area. Took that area apart as part of the floor remodel, and it told me a story.

Pic 9105 - our step area. :) Glued the original piece of linoleum on a couple of scraps of OSB (Oriented Strand Board) . I used the white urethane caulking that was used to seal the roof/outside. Tough stuff.

Pic 9106 - trying to peel the OSB from the linoleum. The glue was so strong it tore the OSB apart.  2o2

Pic 9107 - The paper below this layer showed NO signs of water intrusion.  :-D

Pic 9108 - Removed the next level of OSB board (not shown - was dry) The Tattletale paper shows there WAS WATER.  :cool  but not from the outside corner as before. Looked like it came from the center of the coach.

Pic 9109 - the next layer was a bit moist. The small filler piece shows water damage, and is slightly moldy. The paper shows water has indeed made it down here. BUT... still from the center...NOT the outside.

Pic 9110 - Pulled the paper out. The bold red and yellow lines show where the paper was tucked under the edge. The lighter yellow outline shows the water penetration. *ALL* from the centerline of the coach, none from outside.  :beg


I know the cause. We recently got 2 of the 'RTIC' coolers. they have 2 drains, and we did find that one was not tightened. It leaked on the carpet, and soaked down there. VERY happy the paper 'told the tale' and I am confident the rain leak has been solved.  (cheer) (cheer)

The paper also had a minor stain at the rear side... and I know when that happened. I spilled a drink in the step area during the new years rally, and it soaked that far before I had it mopped up. Neat to see the record the paper kept.  2o2  My Grandpa always said 'Paper has a long memory'   (exactly)  Lesson learned here is that I am going to caulk ALL seams. When the inevitable spill happens, it will keep the liquid on the topside, not soaking down. So when that jar of sweet gherkins breaks... we dont smell like pickles forever.  roflol



Thats all for today.  tymote for reading.




Title: Re: Rain Water Leaks into coach.
Post by: Volkemon on January 17, 2018, 07:08:16 pm
Why the fun may NEVER end..  roflol

Started poking around the passenger footwell area this afternoon.. and found moisture.   :beg  Condensate under the step cover, and the carpet damp/moist. Dammit.

9120 shows the areas with water outlined in red.

9119 shows the rusty water drip from inside the A pillar. I was aware of it, and thought it a remnant of the windshield rust leak. Pretty sure it is....


9123 shows the path the rusty water left as it traveled down. Evidently there was water going inboard also and maybe the glue masks the track? There is a floor bolt on the lower left that shows signs of water puddling.

9121 is that bolt. Its seen water.

I have the carpet pulled, and will be driving the coach for the next couple days. Be keeping a close eye on it. Glad i found it now instead of AFTER the new floor install..  (nod)