Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: sailors35 on November 16, 2017, 03:26:15 pm
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Getting ready to tackle this project. Upon inspection it appears Ford has made the job of removing/replacing the driver side front shock that closely resembles many of the cursed jobs I experienced on my sailboat! Several You Tube videos show everything from there being an access hole below the carpet, using a sawzall, or a combination of various wrenches and bloodied knuckles! Advice or experience much appreciated. pyho
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Try placing a box wrench up top and wedge it so it won't move, then turn the shock, keeping the shock's top nut fixed. Being a 2017, rust won't be an issue for you.
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I replaced the shocks on my 2016 2351 on a E-450 chassis with Koni's. Yep, your correct. The left front is a @#^#@. pyho The rears were a piece of cake, the right front was tough and the left front took two of us about hour to swap. Once the top nut is loose, you can spin the shock to finish removing the nut. Two of us had the four shocks changed out in about two hours.
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My mechanic used a Sawzall.
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I didn’t find any to be that big a deal. The front left took an extra 15 minutes but the access hole makes it very doable. Using a sawzall works well too.
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Don't destroy the shock getting it off. 2016 & 2017 shocks are like new. If you know anyone with an E250 or E350 van, they use the same shock. Make someones day and hand them over.
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I just caught that it’s a 2017. Why change them out? I changed mine out that were 6 years old with 30,000 miles on them and quite frankly I won’t say the Komi shocks I put in are that much better. Actually in hind sight I should have installed bilsteins and saved some cash as the Komi being better than 6 year old shocks didn’t make me go OMG!
Maybe you’ve already done this but if ride is an issue I’d start with weighing your rig loaded and adjusting your air pressure.
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I just caught that it’s a 2017. Why change them out?
Hi Joseph,
The shocks that come with the chassis from Ford are not effective because the chassis is loaded up to, or close to the max load rating. Placing a house, appliances, people, water, and their contents, all combined is equivalent to a box truck loaded up. The problem is made worse when the RV manufacture increases the wheel base and the worst is extending the frame behind the rear axle.
Apparently, Ford's shocks consider an empty or partially loaded box truck. They are under-rated for the full load of a motor home. That is why it is so popular to install after-market heavy duty shocks. Understand that the shocks Ford installs are the same shock they install on an E250 van. That alone is a strong indicator that the shocks are inferior for a motor home application.
Not every RV owner feels the same. It could be they might not realize their shocks are inferior, or possibly the weight is well distributed on their motor home. Some people simply get used to the way their motor home handles. Some people don't travel far to their camping destinations so they don't see the value in the investment. They would understand if they could drive identical motor homes loaded up, one upgraded, side by side, on a road that needs to be resurfaced and experiencing gusty side winds, driving across the USA. That would be a typical condition for some of us.
Not just the shock aborbers, inferiority continues with the front and rear stabilizer bars, and the steering stabilizer. Replacing all with heavy duty equivalents, in combination help make the chassis handle much better. I feel you need to upgrade all of them to notice a significant improvement.
As you say, load distribution, the right tire pressure, and also the right wheel alignment, further improves the handling.
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I am with Ron on this. Our 2552 would wander on the highway and sway when being passed by big trucks or a gust of wind. Last week we took our coach to Champion Frame-Alignment in Elgin, Illinois. They installed Koni shocks, a track bar, and front and rear anti-sway bars. They also aligned the front end. The way it handles now compared to the original is a huge improvement.
Even my wife can tell the difference even though she isn’t driving. I’m very pleased and would recommend the upgrade to anyone.
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I am with Ron on this. Our 2552 would wander on the highway and sway when being passed by big trucks or a gust of wind. Last week we took our coach to Champion Frame-Alignment in Elgin, Illinois. They installed Koni shocks, a track bar, and front and rear anti-sway bars. They also aligned the front end. The way it handles now compared to the original is a huge improvement.
Even my wife can tell the difference even though she isn’t driving. I’m very pleased and would recommend the upgrade to anyone.
Champion Frame Align is less than 30 minutes from our house. They did the suspension improvements on our PC and also our previous motor home, a 1983 Toyota/Mirage. I highly recommend them if you can work out a visit with them. But understand they have to order the parts. They don't stock them. So dropping in unexpectedly will be disappointing.
It is hard to drop an additional $3000 to $4000 in suspension improvements just after buying a new motor home. We all wonder why motor homes are not equipped that way right from Ford to RV manufactures. One simple reason.....money. It's a shame that Ford doesn't install the right parts on the assembly line, instead of inferior ones. It would cost them a lot less than the price Bud and I paid. An additional $1000 to purchase the chassis would be money well spent. The NTSB should make it mandatory for the sake of safety. Not just easier to drive, the safety improvement is tremendous. Of coarse that is only my personal opinion.
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I did one upgrade at a time to get a feel for what made the biggest changes. For us the sway bars and the front end alignment were huge. I didn’t find the Komi shocks changed the ride all that much. The steer safe did tighten up the feel of the steering but it was the front end alignment that stopped the wander on ours.
Too bad we couldn’t have an air ride. A few months back I blew a tire on my motorcycle coming home and needed a tow. The flat bed tow truck was a one year old freightliner with just over 100,000 miles on it. I was amazed at how quiet the diesel was, you had to focus on listening for it to know it was a diesel running. Not like our poorly insulated cabs with all the engine roar. More importably however was it rode smoother than many cars due to its air suspension. It was truly impressive and those that say a truck will can ride like a limo are mistaken.
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Ron, I don’t feel it’s fords fault if the shocks are too light for whatever an aftermarket company loads on top of its frame. Only the person buying the the cut away knows what loads being added. It’s not just rv companies that buy cut always.
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I am with Ron on this. Our 2552 would wander on the highway and sway when being passed by big trucks or a gust of wind. Last week we took our coach to Champion Frame-Alignment in Elgin, Illinois. They installed Koni shocks, a track bar, and front and rear anti-sway bars. They also aligned the front end. The way it handles now compared to the original is a huge improvement.
Even my wife can tell the difference even though she isn’t driving. I’m very pleased and would recommend the upgrade to anyone.
The alignment probably "fixed" 90% of your handling issues.
Shocks have nothing to do with supporting weight, all they do is dampen out the up/down movement of the "unslung" weight (everything below the springs). Thus less "bounce" of everything above the springs.
Sway bars can help with cornering and side gusts. My personal opinion is the sway bars that come on the Ford cutaway are fine.
Trac bars... No opinion.
Steering stabilizers prevent shimmy and/or steering wheel vibration, again, my opinion, factory stabilizer is fine.
Alignment is huge... My bad, but I didn't get it checked right away and as a result, after about 20,000 miles, the inside rib on both front tires was BALD! The outside ribs were fine. After new Michelins on the front and a front end alignment the high speed handling is vastly improved.
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I wrote THIS (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2094.0.html) a few years ago on how to determine if your PC's suspension could benefit from the improvements we are in discussion over.
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Ron, I don’t feel it’s fords fault if the shocks are too light for whatever an aftermarket company loads on top of its frame. Only the person buying the the cut away knows what loads being added. It’s not just rv companies that buy cut always.
Hi Joseph,
We won't be seeing eye to eye on this one. RV manufactures all buy the "RV Package" version of cut-away chassis. It is a matter of fact that every RV Package sold will become a motor home. I feel every RV package chassis should be equipped with the right parts to handle the projected full-time load safely.
There are cut-away packages offered for box truck rentals and such where there is often no load, a partial load, at-load, an uneven load, and sometimes an over-load. It surely wouldn't hurt to have the same upgrades for them, but we are not discussing box trucks here. We are discussing extended & stretched frames, a variety of shapes and sizes, poor weight distributions, max-load chassis conditions that the RV industry is all about.
Is it Ford's fault? Maybe it would be better stated that the Feds (the NTSB) needs to reevaluate the requirements for all cut-away chassis being supplied specifically to the RV industry.
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Motorhome builders buy the cheapest / lowest bid. If they stated it must meet certain specs ford Chevy or whomever would have to bid accordingly. However motorhome builders are like anyone else chasing the buck and cheapest wins. Does pc care if it handles like a t*rd? I doubt it or at a min they would offer upgrades or at least do a front end alignment . They read these forums but how many offer to do the upgrades while it’s on their line?
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That is exactly the reason why I feel the Federal NTSB should mandate that every motor home must be built on a motor home chassis, not a box truck chassis. And every motor home chassis made by Ford or whoever, must have heavy duty front & rear stabilizer bars, heavy duty steering stabilizer, and heavy duty shocks. Because most RV frames are extended beyond the rear axle, I would even include the rear trac bar. That way it is seamless to the RV manufacture and the final owner, us.
The wheel alignment has too much of a variable for the chassis manufacture to build into the chassis. That falls on the motor home manufacture. It sure seems a good idea for the NTSB require them to get each unit aligned. The only hang-up I have about that idea is that the alignment should be done at the time the final owner is ready to leave on a trip, loaded up his way. 55 gallons of gasoline, 10 gallons of propane, 40 gallons of fresh water, bottled water & beverages, kitchen ware, grill, chairs, food, gear, personal stuff, and even people. When I had our wheel alignment done, I went as far a placing my exercise weights and tow bar hardware behind the two front seats to represent Irene and me. My alignment company (Champion Frame Align) instructed me to bring the rig to them loaded ready to go, for a best alignment outcome.
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Ron, your spot on with the wheel alignment and at delivery would show customer relations are important. I believe after talking to the truck front end expert out here just filling fuel, water and a waste tank is plenty. I do see the higher end motor homes like the 200,000+ pushers and super C all seem to have superior suspensions and road ready but then that’s waaaaay out of my league. I’ll always be at the so called budget end.
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I’ll always be at the so called budget end.
Me too.
We try our best NOT to live penny-wise / dollar-foolish. But we do have our limitations. We splurged big-time buying our PC back in 2007. That is why you will find many of my tips-&-tricks articles, doing cost conscious improvements.
Had I known back in 2007 what I know today, I would have tackled much of the suspension upgrades on my own and save 50%.
One thing we will never have the luxury. That is replacing our PC. This one has to outlast us, and we will be 60 in 2018.
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I hear you, I do the same, have to, being retired. Some friends of ours just bought a 34 ft 5th wheeler at 90 + tax etc grand. He said he scored a great deal and I hope he did but damn it didn’t even come with a generator. Of course it did come with the all important fire place and washer dryer. God bless them that they have the cash to buy what ever fits there fancy. I feel blessed I could buy a used unit and a afford to travel some. 50 years from now when I’m 120+ years old I won’t care so much. 😳
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Ron, I don’t feel it’s fords fault if the shocks are too light for whatever an aftermarket company loads on top of its frame. Only the person buying the the cut away knows what loads being added. It’s not just rv companies that buy cut always.
Hi Joseph,
We won't be seeing eye to eye on this one. RV manufactures all buy the "RV Package" version of cut-away chassis. It is a matter of fact that every RV Package sold will become a motor home. I feel every RV package chassis should be equipped with the right parts to handle the projected full-time load safely.
There are cut-away packages offered for box truck rentals and such where there is often no load, a partial load, at-load, an uneven load, and sometimes an over-load. It surely wouldn't hurt to have the same upgrades for them, but we are not discussing box trucks here. We are discussing extended & stretched frames, a variety of shapes and sizes, poor weight distributions, max-load chassis conditions that the RV industry is all about.
Is it Ford's fault? Maybe it would be better stated that the Feds (the NTSB) needs to reevaluate the requirements for all cut-away chassis being supplied specifically to the RV industry.
Cutaways are "incomplete vehicles" and as such, many of the standards do not apply. GVWR is a standard that must be certified and is based on (among ither things) axles, tires and suspension. GCWR is mainly based on tires and brakes.
I honestly don't know what kinds of tests or documentation are required (for the Feds) by vehicle completers such as Phoenix.
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We are about to order a 2018 2552 (90% sure that is what we want). Anyway, we are factoring in the upgraded suspension as an upfront expense. We just spoke to Earl and he insists that the newer units don’t need it but if the op felt the need to upgrade I guess we will too. Is there a place near the factory that can do the work? We will spend a couple of days in the area checking that everything works and can prearrange the work after pickup. To be clear, this is what we need to add/change out: shock absorbers (Koni FSB or whatever they are called), Roadmaster heavy duty front and rear sway bars, Steer Safe steering stabilizer (PC will install), and maybe air bags for the back. Do I have it right? You folks know your stuff and my husband (awaiting approval) will surely want to pick your brains once he is on. PC is closed, starting tomorrow, until Jan. 8. We should be primed and ready to start the year off right!
Madonna
P.s. Ron, in a previous post you said you bought a chair for your living area. Did you get it in Elkhart? It seemed nicer than the $1k lounge they offer. It didn’t recline did it?
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While I respect everyone's opinion and besides that I'm no expert on suspension I do not believe there is any reason to upgrade the E-450 suspension on current models. Especially without having driven it to see if it is an issue for you. I respect Earl's experience in this area, he sells a lot of E-450 trucks over the year and I doubt 1% of those sales get upgraded suspension right off the bat.
That said, I added a Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer at Earl's suggestion and had the rig aligned after it was fully loaded up. Those improvements did make a difference, especially the alignment. But other than that I have no issue driving mine in cross winds on the interstate.
So before you jump in and spend a bunch of money, try driving it a month to see if you really need to spend it.
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I asked Phoenix to have our 2552 aligned before picking it up which they did. They also provided me with the alignment data. The downside to having them do it at that time was not having the unit loaded as we typically would for extended camping trips. I have seen several references to have the caster set to +5 degrees which as I recall our caster was about +3.5 degrees. No doubt more caster makes the unit travel straighter with less input from the driver which on straight roads would be less tiring to drive. Having the 5 degrees of caster may be something you want to explore further.
Other than the alignment we did not have anything done to the suspension. I found after a few miles of driving to get use to driving a larger vehicle that it handled reasonably well. I have never experienced any signicant push/pull when passing or being passed by tractor and trailers or large class A motorhome. While handling is influenced by a number of factors I believe weight distribution, center of gravity, and aerodynamic force magnitude and location relative to the wheel locations play a major roll in how well the vehicle handles. Other than comments made by other users I theorize the geometry and weight distribution of a 2552 is not as prone to handling issues as some other models particularly the shorter models.
While our PC doesn’t drive like a sports car I have never felt uncomfortable driving it. On good roads it rides reasonably well but on badly segmented or pot hole roads the heavy duty suspension is somewhat jolting and noisy. I agree with Jatrax you may want to minimize the upfront modifications other than a proper alignment and assess what if any modifications are required. I don’t have any regrets of ordering ours stock.
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I have to agree with Jatrax. I have had two Born Free units that rode like buckboards that I spent big $ trying to get to ride smoother. Had More-Ryde installed on one of them.Our 2351 wasn't bad but I did put Koni FSB shocks on it. Our new extended 2552, after a local front end alignment, needs nothing. Earl is correct. It needs nothing (IMHO) 2o2
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As the years pass, I have learned much about this. I think I understand this better now. Models 2100, 2350, 2400, and possibly 2351 on the E350 chassis are the PCs that benefit most from the suspension upgrades mentioned in the past. Models 2551 and longer do okay just as they are from the factory. I don't believe the E350 itself is the culprit, but rather the short wheel base with an extended rear over-hang that is dimensioned closer to the wheel base, also referred to as the ratio between over-all length and wheel base. A motor home with a large portion of the house hanging out behind the rear axle tends to fling the rear around on the short wheel based vehicle which requires more steering compensation. Building short models on the E450 helps that condition, but the suspension upgrades on the E350 address the problem most effectively along with benefiting from a softer ride.
The short models built on a 2007 E350 and older, are most vulnerable because Ford did not install any kind of rear stabilizer bar until 2008. The rear end thrashes around so badly because it lacks that bar. That was our experience with our 2007 E350 2350. Doing all the suspension upgrades I always talk about might have been over-kill, but the rig is very steady because of it. The upgrades had minimal impact to the softness of ride. It remains relatively soft which is easy on the motor home, it's contents, and the people riding inside. It is also steady when parked with no need to stabilize the rig with jacks.
You with longer PCs built on the E450, your rigs are better proportioned and properly weighted for the E450. Having a long wheel base, you are okay just as you are with the E450. You too would benefit from suspension upgrades, but they will be less beneficial. How good is good enough?
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I knew we could count on you experts for the straight scoop. I’ve driven new old, and totally worn out RVs so have seen the worst and the best. From your advice and Earl’s suggestion we will go with the steering stabilizer initially and get the alignment once home then see what we need. Thanks so much!
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I've owned a 2551 on an E-350 and now a 2552 on a E-450 Ford chassis.
Other than alignment, they both drove fine.
Little Known fact - After you get it loaded up, Call your authorized Ford truck dealer and believe it or not, as part of their warranty, if out of specs, they will align for FREE.
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Little Known fact - After you get it loaded up, Call your authorized Ford truck dealer and believe it or not, as part of their warranty, if out of specs, they will align for FREE.
Wish I had known that, thanks for posting it.
We had our rig aligned at the factory, but of course that is essentially unloaded. When we got home I took it to a local tire shop and had them look at it again.
According to their report:
Caster: 6.0 left and 6.3 right. Which is just about what is recommended on the internet where various 'experts' say to set caster at 5.0 to 5.5. I asked the alignment guy at the shop and he said if he was doing an E-450 RV he would set it between 5.5 and 6.5.
Camber: .03 left and .01 right. They made no change.
Toe: .35 left and .22 right. The alignment guy made a fuss over this and set it: .03 left and .03 right. He said the rig would have been difficult to drive set the way it was.
The rig was noticeably better handling after this alignment. Whether it was set wrong in Elkhart, knocked out of whack on the trip home or set correctly but the added weight changed things I have no idea. I do know that the $72 they charged me for the alignment was money well spent. And if Ford will do it under warranty, even better.
PS. I originally took our rig to the Ford dealer in town because the serpentine belt was squealing. They replaced it under warranty which fixed that. I asked them to have it aligned while it was in the shop but they told me they could not do it as the wheelbase was too long for their rack. So I took it across the street to Les Schwab who said "no problem".