Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jatrax on March 21, 2017, 10:38:59 pm
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Trying to figure out the limits on towing, and was hoping someone could check my work.
1) GVWR - On the E-450 this is I think, 14,500. I have a weigh slip from our coach with full tanks, 2 passengers and all gear & food that says 13,560 so 940 pounds under. As I understand it towing 4 wheels down the only additional weight here would be the tow bar. So maybe 100 - 150 pounds max for the tow bar? Anyway, easily under so no worries here.
2) GCWR - On the E-450 this seems to be 22,000 pounds per the Ford website. So 22,000 - 14,500 = 7,500 pounds maximum towing capacity.
3) Hitch rating - the hitch on the 2552 says it is rated for 5,000 pounds. I think de-rating that to 80% to allow for gear and fluids in the toad is reasonable. So I get a maximum vehicle weight of roughly 4,000 pounds.
So no restriction on GVWR, and GCWR is way over the hitch rating so the limit is the hitch rating. So I should be fine with a vehicle of around 4,000 pounds, max.
Anyone see any flaws in this?
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I'm no expert, but the 5,000 lb wt limit on hitch receiver might also have to do with vehicle frame extension limits. And, an RV or vehicle manufacturer might only install a receiver no stronger than the vehicle frame rating. Our Jeep Wrangler Rubicon is rated to tow (deadweight-only; no weight-distributing hitch receivers) 2,000 lbs. The factory-authorized, dealer-installed receiver would have been a 1 1/4-inch unit rated at that amount or less (can't recall). The weight limit was OK, but it wouldn't work with most bike racks. So, I had a conventional 2-inch receiver installed, but this was rated at 3,500 lbs (ok for the longer-wheelbase Wrangler Unlimiteds). If ever sold, I'd probably modify sticker to match vehicle weight limit. So, you might check with PC and see what the frame can handle. If more, and you want to tow a heavier vehicle, a heavier receiver might solve the problem. But I'll bet that 5,000 lb receiver is on it for a reason, and it will match frame limits.
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I am towing a 4000 pound vehicle with my 2350 on a Ford 350 chassis with lighter capacities than your 450. Yes, your rig is a four feet longer but I don't think you have a worry. We fill the Cherokee with all sorts of camping junk with the back seats laid flat. Couple of hundred pounds worth. The only time I am really cognizant of towing it is on a really steep mountain pass.
And when I try to approach a gasoline pump. You gotta kinda choose your spots to refill your PC unless you unhitch. You can't make a very wide swing.
Paul
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jatrax,
You can safely tow a vehicle (with contents) up to 5000 pounds, but people like to use their tow vehicle as a storage trailer so be watchful about the extra weigh you add.
The actual tow bar weight placed on the hitch receiver is under 35 pounds, likely less, so no significant weight is added there.
You might find THIS (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,1697.0.html) post interesting.
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Thanks all!
Ron that is an interesting set of photos, thanks for linking to them, I had not considered the need for the tow bar to be level, but that makes sense.
I was fairly sure of the 5,000# limit but wanted to walk through the calculations so I actually understood it all. And as I understand it there are three different things that have to be evaluated. The lowest number of the three is the limit to towing weight.
Since I am towing all 4 wheels down the weight of the tow bar is essentially meaningless at 35# or so. If I was towing a trailer or a dolly though, the tongue weight would need to be calculated.
The GCWR allows for 7,500# but the hitch is rated for only 5,000# and that being the lowest number is the limiting factor. I would be more comfortable at an 80% de-rate to allow for gear, fluids and so on. So anywhere around 4,000# would be fine without any worry and leave a comfortable margin for gear, kayaks or whatever.
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The closer to level the tow bar can be adjusted the better the tow and the fewer problems. Here is a word of warning: it happened to me. I had never towed a car in my life behind a motorhome until we got our PC a few years ago. The towbar when first installed was significantly inclined up from the PC to the Jeep. Corrected that with a really heavy duty riser. Next the safety cables on the tow bar.
Now, like I said, I was a complete neophyte as far as towing a car although I had towed some trailers. The mistake was the safety cables were too short to allow a sharp turn. First tow, I pull out of my own driveway and buckled one of the arms on the towbar because the cable on that side was too short to allow the turn. Once the damage was done, it was obvious to me what my mechanical mistake was. So, longer safety cables and repairing the damaged tow bar came next. Other than that first timer mistake, no other problems. Three hundred extra bucks of expense because I simply didn't know to be mindful of that cable length being adequate. Live and learn. I pass along my error and hope it may prevent others from the same simple possibility.
Paul
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Doneworking/Paul,
I almost made the same mistake you did, using the standard length blue safety cables. I initially installed them but they looked concerning, so I went on-line and found sets of cables sold at longer lengths, bought a pair one foot longer and all was well.
There is one other matter worth mentioning when towing.....the clearance between the tow vehicle's front bumper and the PC's rear bumper when making sharp turns. Depending on the style of the tow vehicle and not using a hitch riser/adapter, they might make contact. When we were towing our Liberty the bad way with the angled tow bar, during initial testing, when cutting the PC into a sharp turn like is often done in a gas station, the corner of the Liberty's front bumper almost touched the PC's rear bumper. If we had a Wrangler with a more squared-off bumper, I think I would have body damage. Adding the hitch riser/adapter not only made the tow bar level, but it set the Liberty one foot farther away from the PC. It still gets close but not so concerning. One thing certain....never try to back up even a few inches if you are already in a tight turn for you will jack-knife the two vehicles, crushing each other.
We first towed a 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder, a low set car which did not need a hitch riser/adapter. The front bumper of that car is curved, therefore there was no worry about the two vehicles making contact during tight turns.
It could be that different tow bars are different lengths. Our Roadmaster Falcon 2 tow bar has this matter. It would be a good idea to ask about different length tow bars, for "Longer is better".
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So after spending most of last evening looking on the internet and researching toads, I am now even more confused.
I'm not a 'car guy', I know that gets me kicked out of the guy club but honestly if it starts and runs I really don't care all that much. I don't change my oil or anything else, that's what garages are for. So all I find on the internet has just confused me even more because it seems I don't speak the right language.
There does not seem to be any straight answers. You can tow this car, but only for this year if it has this transmission but not that one and if you hang Lavender flowers on the mirror. roflol
I think someone could make a good business buying used vehicles that are towable, adding the base plate and lighting and brakes and tow bar and then reselling it as a done deal. I've talked to a couple of local dealers and they seem to know even less about towing a car than I do if that is possible. When you mention towing they assume you are towing something behind the car, not the car behind something.
Is there a marketplace for used Toads? Vehicles that are known "good to tow" and already have all the equipment added?
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Hi jatrax,
You sound like me in 2007. The subject of tow vehicles had me dizzy, and I think back then it was more straight forward. These days many 4WD and 4x4 types have a convenient dash-mounted electrical switch for the driver to select 4WD high and low, and some don't have a neutral position like the old days when the vehicle had a separate gear shift lever. Our Jeep Liberty has such a mechanical lever. When I put that lever in neutral and the transmission in park, all is well. The automatic transmission is prevented from spinning so it is protected while being towed.
Back in 2007 with exception of all Saturns and other sprinkled brand models it seemed that if you had an automatic transmission, you needed to have a gear transfer case with a neutral position, just like our Liberty has. Of coarse 99.99% of the vehicles sold with automatic transmissions back then didn't have a gear transfer case so they were ruled out. People with most front wheel drive auto-trans vehicles got around it by using a tow dolly. A rare few people with rear wheel drive auto-trans vehicles that stood tall actually went as far as removing the drive shaft to tow their vehicle with all wheels on the ground. People sought after manual transmission vehicles with tow bar brackets offered.
A few vehicles in 2007, but many vehicles following 2007, automatic transmission vehicles were able to be towed with all wheels on the ground, but every few hundred miles, you need to start and warm up the tow vehicle and then go through all the gears a number of times while holding the brake pedal. It seems most recently, the auto manufactures state that if you tow their vehicle all-wheels-down, it voids their warranty.
Now-a-days, many vehicles have push-button start so there is no key to mechanically unlock the steering wheel. Some vehicles, the gear shift lever is actually an electronic devise, not mechanical, so putting the transmission in neutral, it might not stay that way when the car is turned off and being towed. Today's high technology adds more complexity in vehicle choices, hence more research required to determine how (or if) it works when being towed.
There are a few websites out there with charts to show which vehicles are okay to tow with all wheels on the ground. If I were looking for a tow vehicle today, I would seek those charts but not solely rely on them. I would also seek available tow bar brackets from the towing hardware suppliers like Blue Ox and Roadmaster. I would be most confident with a vehicle like our Liberty with a mechanically controlled gear transfer case.
In this picture of a 1st generation Jeep Liberty 2002-2007, you can see the gear transfer case shift lever to the left of the transmission gear shift lever. It resembles a parking brake lever. If you look close, you can see a diagram on it that explains each position. That lever shown here all the way down is in "normal rear wheel drive mode".
(http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/images/RoadTestImages/06/06JeepLibertyDash.jpg)
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Is there a marketplace for used Toads? Vehicles that are known "good to tow" and already have all the equipment added?
Escapees Discussion Forum has a section dedicated to RVs and toads for sale. http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?/forum/25-rvs-tows-and-toads-for-sale/ Most entries are for RVs with toads but you might find auto types listed that will give you some starting points. Good luck. :)(:
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Escapees Discussion Forum has a section dedicated to RVs and toads for sale.
Thanks for that link, just what I was looking for!
Ron, thanks again for the info. Yes you are correct it is a lot harder these days. Not only do we have automatic transmissions and All Wheel Drive in addition to 2wd and 4x4 we are also starting to get CVT or constant velocity transmissions, which are very definitely not towable. Add that to sales people on the showroom floor who have no idea and things can get ugly.
Here are a few resources I have found that might help others:
http://www.remcoindustries.com/Towing/
http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides/
https://www.fmca.com/motorhome/towing.html
http://blueox.com/recreational-commercial-flat-towing/
https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-cars-can-be-flat-towed-behind-an-rv.html
There is an amazing amount of information out there on the internet, but it is often contradictory or confusing.
One thing I did find out is that later Jeep Liberty's do not have the mechanical lever transfer case like you said, but they do have a push button that puts the transfer case in neutral. So while I, like you, would prefer a mechanical lever they can be towed using the push button to put the transfer case in neutral. Assuming the correct engine / transmission combination of course.
Still looking and researching. We still have lots to learn about the motorhome itself so adding a toad will come when we are ready. Probably late summer.
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One thing I did find out is that later Jeep Liberty's do not have the mechanical lever transfer case like you said, but they do have a push button that puts the transfer case in neutral. So while I, like you, would prefer a mechanical lever they can be towed using the push button to put the transfer case in neutral. Assuming the correct engine / transmission combination of course.
Whether a Liberty or other button-controlled vehicle, being an electronic push button, make sure it stays in neutral when the engine is shut off and the steering wheel is unlocked for towing. Who knows how it was designed. Maybe when you shut off the engine and it starts to roll, it jumps back into a gear so the vehicle does not run away when parked. There so many safeguards in vehicles these days. A soft copy of the 2nd generation Liberty owners manual might be available on-line. See if you can find it and read about how that neutral position works.
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Whether a Liberty or other button-controlled vehicle, being an electronic push button, make sure it stays in neutral when the engine is shut off and the steering wheel is unlocked for towing. Who knows how it was designed.
For the Liberty the information came from a number of people who have been towing them for years, so I feel comfortable that the system used there works.
For other brands / models, yes, the owner manual is the only source to trust when buying.
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And these days, almost all auto manuals are available online.
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Whether a Liberty or other button-controlled vehicle, being an electronic push button, make sure it stays in neutral when the engine is shut off and the steering wheel is unlocked for towing. Who knows how it was designed.
For the Liberty the information came from a number of people who have been towing them for years, so I feel comfortable that the system used there works.
For other brands / models, yes, the owner manual is the only source to trust when buying.
Great! It sounds like the 2nd gen Liberty will tow well.
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This months MotorHome magazine came with their comprehensive Dingy Towing Guide, I would suggest all get thier hands on this valuable resource that lists all cars and which ones can and can not be towed and what special instrcutions apply to tow them. IMO Jeep is the clear winner in the dingy catagory since they are easy to tow with no special needs and the odometer does not record the towed miles. Keeping that tow bar no more than 3" (level is ideal) out of being level is crtical to good towing. best of luck
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John, Ron, and others,
Thanks for all of your advice and research on this issue. It saves me a lot of time and headache in muddling through making an informed decision about towing a sight seeing vehicle.
The V10 motors in our rigs, with their multitude of computers and mystery black boxes, don't easily lend themselves to DIY projects unless you have a degree in auto repair and thousands of dollars worth of tools. Gone are the days of the shade tree mechanic where a Saturday afternoon could be spent with a buddy and a six pack of beer, changing the oil, and pulling the distributor cap to check the points, while listening to Bob Seiger, or ' The Boss' on your cassette deck.
I do still change my own oil and check fluids as this is about all one can do these days. I was happy to see while crawling around underneath the Midnight Rambler, the the oil drain plug and filter are easily accessible!
So John, because of your time consuming research, and the fact that you know how to use a tire gauge and put air in the tires, I vote that your man card NOT be pulled! (cheer)
Best to All,
Bill
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Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! "Man card"??? You are seriously going to get yourself in trouble with the women on this forum. We use a mechanic now but I know how to put air in the tires, change the tire, change the oil, flush the radiator, gap the points and more. I've also changed batteries, distributor caps and wiring. I am the one that does most of the troubleshooting on the rig (though John does most of the repairs that don't require a mechanic).
I was once a poor person with a finicky car so I traveled with the matching repair manual and used it on many occasions. This skill cost me a boyfriend way back when. He was driving and my car died roadside. He got out to fiddle with this, that and the other thing under the hood. I sat in the car and pulled out the trusty repair manual. I figured out the problem, swapped a fuse from something we didn't need to something we did and called him back in to get on down the road. He was seriously upset that I had undermined his "manliness" by resolving the car issue myself. No amount of fiddling with the engine was going to fix it and nobody was nearby to see that I was the one that found the solution but his ego couldn't handle the situation and he was in the wind. His loss, my gain. I hereby revoke HIS "man card" because that guy was seriously lacking.
sorry for hijacking of the string - back to the regularly scheduled towing calculation discussion
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Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes! :-[
I hope John realizes what a lucky man he is. ;)
Safe Travels kumbaya