Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: jatrax on November 06, 2016, 05:57:26 pm
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Well, we pulled the trigger on a new 2017 2552 last week. Visited the factory and spent a day and a half with Earl, Kyle and Kermit getting questions answered and discussing options and modifications. We had a great visit and I can see why everyone thinks so highly of the folks at PC. We had a long and possibly unreasonable list of modifications and ended up with most of them. I cannot imagine another builder being so willing to work with us.
So much better having the opportunity to be involved rather than picking something off a dealer lot.
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Glad to hear about your great experience with the folks at PC. I'm sure you are wanting the next couple of months to fly. I look forward to hearing about the progress of your 2552. Congratulations.
Gail
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jatrax,
You are such a teaser. Please share all the details on the deviations you worked out with the people at Phoenix.
:) Ron
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We had a long and possibly unreasonable list of modifications and ended up with most of them.
Good to hear John.
I hope things worked out with the Power Management System and Solar Power system that we discussed.
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I second (or triple) that motion to hear what all you came up with. My RV will run the line this winter so I am all for finding out anything I might not have thought of that I might still get changed. I am in for double solar panels and an upgraded inverter along with some of the known options.
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I, too, would love to hear what you did to make this 2552 "YOUR 2552". I continue to go back and forth between the 2552 and the 2910T. Hearing about what one has done and why... sure does help with my own perpetual internal dialogue (yes... I DO talk to myself!).
Jim
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OK everyone here is the options list and yeah we might have over done it :-D
2552 with slide
Slide with sofa instead of dinette
Full body paint
Keyless entry
Cab floor insulation
Safety plus steering stabilizer
Graystone exterior
Graystone interior
Cherry cabinets
Wood floor
Awning
Premium convenience package
Power driver seat
Swivel passenger seat
Heated seats
HWH leveling jacks
Surround sound / DVD
Insulated glass
Back up monitor with rear camera
Side cameras
Satellite dish
Second fantastic fan
Ultra leather throughout
3rd captain's seat in place of the Euro-chair with seat-belt
Corian counter top extension
Extra 120 volt receptacle in kitchen
Replace kitchen mirror with metal back splash
Add shelves in passenger side wardrobe
Maxx air covers on the exhaust fans
Power bed on passenger side
2x 150 watt solar panels
Install Trimetric 2030 battery monitor
Upgrade to 2000 watt pure sine inverter
Upgrade air conditioner to 15k heat pump
Upgrade refrigerator to Norcold DE-0061 12 volt compressor model
Connector for gas grill
Install AGM batteries
Install surge suppressor
Extra security lights on sides
Add USB receptacles on the 12 volt system
There are also a number of real modifications to the floor plan but I am going to hold off on posting those until we get closer to build time. Don't want to jinx anything. Carrie and I are really, really happy with the design and with Kermit for agreeing to build it the way we want. But I'm going to hold off on posting it yet, just in case.
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I hope things worked out with the Power Management System and Solar Power system that we discussed.
Got the OK from Kermit this afternoon to do it the way I want, mostly. So it looks like that is a very big, yes 2o2
Wish I could have gotten a larger battery pack but everyone at PC says there is no more room. So we will work with what they can do. Will have two panels on the roof and a good solar controller, monitored by the Trimetric so I'm happy.
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jatrax, I absolutely love your list.
If I may.....
You said you are getting AGM batteries. I agree. Are they 6V or 12V batteries? I got two 6V AGM batteries and are extremely happy with them so far. That is compared to two 12V lead acid batteries. I feel two 6Vs share the load much better, and discharge in unison better than two 12Vs. But understand that I've had them for only under 3 years so far.
About your 3 captain seats. Make sure they all have the manual dial lumbar support. Years after buying our PC, we ordered our third captain seat which by chance happened to come with that dial-in lumbar support. We wished the two main seats up front had that.
Ron
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I thought they were 6 volt, but now that you bring it up I'm not 100% sure Earl ever said.
I have read up a lot on batteries and there is always some argument about the 6 volt versus 12 volt issue. But my opinion, based on information from people I trust is that IF the batteries are of equal quality, size and specifications there is no difference in performance between a pair of 6 volt or a pair of 12 volt. The problem is finding a set of 12 volt ones that are equal to the 6 volt ones. Good quality deep cycle 6 volts are just easier to come by so most people use them. They seem to be cheaper than an equivalent set of 12 volts as well.
The big 'con' for 6 volt battery packs is the hypothetical situation where one of the batteries fails. With 2x 12 volt ones you can cut out the bad battery and keep going. Cannot do that with 2x 6 volt ones. But honestly how often is that ever going to happen?
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I continue to go back and forth between the 2552 and the 2910T.
We did the same. Two things decided us, first we have a real limit to what will fit on our lot. We measured carefully and the 2552 will fit. The 2910? Maybe, sorta, kinda, hanging over into the neighbor's yard. Second, we liked the idea of the queen bed in the slide with space to walk around on the 2910. But when we tested it at the factory the space to walk around was not really very big, not worth taking the chance on the longer length to us.
So 2552 it is. But the 2910 is a very nice layout, just not for us.
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Wow, sounds like it'll be a really nice rig! Do you know if the side cameras will be mounted on the side mirrors or on the side of the rig?
- Mike
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Nice list with every thing one could possibly want.
I was wondering where you live and where you plan on going camping. What with the insulated windows, and upgraded AC. You might want to update your profile to include where you live.
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Do you know if the side cameras will be mounted on the side mirrors or on the side of the rig?
From what I saw at the factory they get mounted on the front quarter panels, not the mirrors.
What with the insulated windows, and upgraded AC. You might want to update your profile to include where you live.
Will do! Insulated windows I added mostly to reduce outside noise based on comments here. We discussed all of the different A/C options with Earl and ended with the 15k BTU model. It includes the heat pump so in mild weather provides heat, down to mid 40's I think, has a little more A/C capacity and from reports here is quieter than the smaller model.
We are based out of Oregon in the Cascade mountains but plan to travel over most of the west.
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We have the 15K air conditioner with heat pump and we just got back from a trip to the smokies and shenandoah and the heat pump worked great down into the 40's when we were plugged in with electric. A nice option when plugged in to not have to use your LP.
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What is the difference between a heat pump and a heat strip?
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A heat pump uses a compressor like an air conditioner. Basically it is a "heat mover", it can move "heat" from inside to outside if you want to cool or from outside to inside if you want to heat. Residential heat pumps are one of the most efficient heating systems for homes in moderate climates. But they do not work as well as a furnace when the outside temps go below 40F.
Heat strips are resistant heat coils powered by electricity similar to the glowing coils in small space heaters. They use an enormous amount of electricity because they are creating "heat" rather than moving it as a heat pump does.
In most applications there will be a supplemental heat source that takes over when temperatures fall below what the heat pump can work at. This quickly reduces the cost effectiveness of a heat pump in colder climates since you need both the heat pump and a furnace. In the case of an RV we will also have the LP furnace to take over below 40F. But I'm not planning on too many camping trips when its that cold anyway. :)
http://www.heatpump-reviews.com/heat-pump.html
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I'll second what Jatrax said re. heat pumps, from what I recall from the '70's, when they were new for RVs and we had one on one of the travel trailers. One could sort of think of them as an air conditioner that can run in reverse, though to design something to do so is rather complicated and expensive. As I recall, when they were operated to heat the rv, power consumption was about the same as when set for cooling, during chilly but not cold evenings (not sure of exact cutoff, but below 40 it really wouldn't work). However, more heat could be produced than with the same power to a heat strip, so it'd cycle on less frequently. As for cost-effectiveness, they might be worth it if one frequently needed electric heat in their sweetspot of about 45+ ambient temperatures and was paying an electric bill for heating. For most RVers, not in such circumstances too long, the cheaper, simpler electric heat strip-only units or, cheaper yet, a portable electric heater, or simply the propane furnace, would be more cost-effective. I recall my father and I thought it would pencil out but actual chilly weather camping with hookups was nil, so it did not.
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Thank you both for the clarification on heat pumps in-general.
For the application in a roof-top a/c unit on the roof of a motor home, I feel energy usage is generally not a consideration as Michelle noted. Would we all agree? If so, then I would think "Noise" and "Quanity Of Heat In Colder Temps" would be the focus, not energy efficiency.
Does the heat pump in a PC generate more heat or less heat in colder temps than the heat strip offered?
Does the heat pump in a PC make more noise or less noise than the heat strip offered?
I don't have the answers but my ignorance says the heat strip is the clear winner. Adding $400 for a heat pump makes no sense. I feel I am missing something here.
Ron
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Ron I am no expert, and until my rig is built I cannot tell from first hand experience. However my thoughts:
Does the heat pump in a PC generate more heat or less heat in colder temps than the heat strip offered?
In moderate temperatures I think the heat pump will deliver more heat. This based on comments on this forum. In really cold temperatures the heat strips will deliver more. However, based on what I have read here in really cold temperatures the heat strips do not deliver enough so either the LP furnace or an auxiliary heater will be needed anyway. So I'll call this a draw for the average person.
Does the heat pump in a PC make more noise or less noise than the heat strip offered?
Again this is based on comments I have read here. Several people have noted that the 15k unit is actually quieter than the 13.5k unit. Without knowing the brand names and model numbers I cannot research reliability and so on but I am betting the 15k is a 'better' unit. But of course I do not actually know that. And we do not actually know that the units being installed in 2017 are the same as the folks are talking about from a few years ago.
Bottom line, I doubt that the choice will really make that much difference in the long run. I prefer the heat pump based on my research but I could be wrong.
I will ask Earl if he can provide the model number.
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We had a heat pump AC in a rig we owned a few years ago. It was great! (Our previous experience with a heat pump was in a vacation house we owned in Northern Arkansas and it gets cold over there. We had a heat pump with auxiliary 10,000 watt heat strips. The AC worked great in the summer and the heat pump worked fine as long as the temps were above 40 degrees. As I recall, its efficiency dropped a bunch below that temp but the strips kicked on and kept the place nice and cozy. That was my first experience with a heat pump so I was excited to get one in our rv later on.)
Now, with the Phoenix Cruiser we have the heat strips. They work OK for just taking off a chill, but I fire up the propane heater if it is really cold and then maybe turn it off and use the heat strips to maintain the temp. I would much prefer that our rig had the 15k AC and heat pump and I would certainly order that combo on any new rig if available.
Like a couple of other posts have said, it is just an air conditioner in reverse, really.
Your list of options on the new rig makes me want to play the old Mancini song "Dreamsville" because it will be a dream come true. That will be one super nice RV.
Paui
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I do not have the unit with heat strips in our PC but a previous camping trailer did have the strips. I believe the strips are rated at 1500 watts so the maximum heat is about 5,200 btu. The PC heat pump is rated at 15,000 btu so about 3 times as much. The heat pump rating is at a specific temperature. Below 40 degrees the heat pump heat output drops off pretty quickly.
I selected the 15,000 btu heat pump model primarily for its extra cooling ability. It was reported by some people that it was quieter than the basic 13,500 btu AC as well though I cannot personally attest to this. I can say the heat pump compressor is relatively quiet but interior fan noise level is somewhat excessive.
When electrical hookup is available and the outside temperature 40F or higher the heat pump is useful in warming the coach quickly. Once up to temperature I prefer the small 1500 watt electric space heaters for their relatively quiet operation.
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I believe the strips are rated at 1500 watts so the maximum heat is about 5,200 btu. The PC heat pump is rated at 15,000 btu so about 3 times as much.
So there I have it. The heat pump generates 3 times the heat, but starts dropping off when outside temps get below 40 degrees. Thank you for the education.
Regarding the noise level of the roof top a/c system, a few years ago I recall someone here ordering a Coleman unit for it supposedly runs at a significantly reduced noise level. People ordering a new PC might want to look into it.
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30 or 50 amp system? What is the amps of the 13500 vs 15000 ac? What about heat strip vs heat pump?
I know my dw like to pop the 30 amp breaker with ac and heat strip running. She will start the coffee maker or microwave or a hair dryer and pop goes the weasal.
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I know my dw like to pop the 30 amp breaker with ac and heat strip running. She will start the coffee maker or microwave or a hair dryer and pop goes the weasal.
I can relate with you Tom. The same goes with our 30 amp PC. We need to pay attention to multiple high power items running at the same time. "Wait Honey, let me turn off the 1500 watt floor heater before you start the microwave".
It is very unusual for us to have 30 amp service where we stay, but this past rip to New England in cool temps was different. I was learning all over again managing power like that.
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My original build list specified the 50 amp option. But when we were at the factory they sorta talked me out of it. But so many things were going on that I really never pursued a solid answer on which to use.
I think someone at the factory said that the only thing on the other 'leg' is the second A/C unit which I was not getting. Anyway I got confused and let it drop. Maybe I should re-visit that before they start building?
Anyone with a 50amp panel, how is it wired? Do they split the circuits between the two legs or is it just the second A/C on the other side?
I think I was told that both 50amp and 30amp builds use the same power panel, except on 30amp they use the other side for the inverter plugs and on a 50amp build they use the other side for the second A/C. But to be honest that does not make any sense so I think I must have misunderstood something.
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jatrax, I have the 50 AMP upgrade and love it. The best thing is that I don't have to think about what is on. I can run both AC/Heat Strips, Microwave, Water heater and Wife hair dryer all at the came time. With only 30 AMPs 1 AC, Water Heater, if you want to run the Microwave you have to shut off the AC/Heat Strip. Now with the generator running only the front AC/Heat Strip can run, and the Water Heater. We have 3 dogs that travel with us so we can shut off the bedroom from the front and still have AC/Heat Strip and run the front unit for the girls. We have camped in 10 degree weather and have been very warm with both running without the gas heater on.
Hope this will help
Jim
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1 A/C or 2? With one A/C you only need 30 amp service. Lighter electric cord when hooking up. With two A/Cs you need 50 amp service. Very heavy cord outside. Go to an RV store and pick up one of each in a 25 or 30 foot length.
In the 2552 with one A/C if you close the folding door, you block the A/C from the rear of the coach. If you have guest sleeping up front or one of you wants to go to bed while the other stays up and you want to close off the bedroom, no A/C in the bedroom or bathroom. With two A/Cs and 50 amp service you can run both of them and cool/heat both areas.
I don't know how color panels play into all this.
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I have the 50 AMP upgrade and love it.
Jim, can you tell me how that is wired? Specifically where did they put the inverter circuits? Did they use a sub-panel?
1 A/C or 2? With one A/C you only need 30 amp service. Lighter electric cord when hooking up. With two A/Cs you need 50 amp service.
Tom, I have only the one A/C at this time, the 15k unit. I asked and was told it was no larger than the 13.5k unit as far as roof space. I really like the idea of 2 units, one front one back, I think you might have posted about that before. However, solar is a priority for me so having that second unit might be an issue for roof space.
My eventual goal is to have 600 watts of solar on the roof with an equivalently sized Lithium battery. But that will have to wait a bit. Lithium prices should start to drop in a few years so I am trying to size wire and space to eventually accommodate that layout without wasting money on things that will need to be replaced. Always easier to build in than retrofit, within reason.
John
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jatrax: My is wired like a 220 home, with a double main breaker. The plug on the outside is a 4 prong for 2 110v circuit. What happen when you plug into a 30 to 50 amp adapter is the hot wire of the 30 amp is crossed wired over to the 2nd hot wire of the 50 amp plug. SO with the 50 amp circuit you really have 100 amp of 110 vac, and with 30 vac you get only 30 amps of power. That why you can run just about everything at one time with to 50 amp service. Not sure where they put the inverter circuits on my PC3100. Have never need to check it out, but I think it's under the passenger side bed, I hear a fan coming on/off at times Hope this helps, let me know if you need any more help.
Jim
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Thanks Jim, good explanation of a concept that is often incorrectly described on the internet. 2o2 Lots of not so electrical experts on the internet. Sometimes surprised they do not burn their coaches down when I read some of the misinformation they post.
I may have misunderstood them but when I was at the factory I thought I was told that they use the same panel for both 30amp and 50amp. With 30amp they use one side for the shore power circuits and the other side for the inverter circuits. For 50amp they use one side for the shore power circuits and the other side has the second A/C on it. I got confused and rushed and neglected to ask where the inverter circuits go on a 50amp install. I was guessing they would have to add a sub-panel but do not know. Guess I need to talk to Earl.
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I have 50 amp and just one 15000 BTU A/C unit (a Coleman, non-heat pump). Here is a pic of the general panel schedule....
- Mike
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Talked to the factory and I was wrong about the circuit layout. On a 50amp service normally the only thing on the second leg is the second A/C unit. With only a single A/C unit there would normally be nothing on the second leg. So you get 50amps on one leg, an improvement over the 30amps but nothing on the second leg. Inverter circuits come directly from the inverter and would be on the first leg when plugged in to shore power.
I asked about moving circuits to the second leg and was told the problem is that the generator will only supply the first leg so anything on the second leg is not powered with the generator. Plugging into a park 30amp circuit would require an adapter as well and would supply only a total of 30amps divided between both legs.
Anyway, I ordered the 50amp and had them put the water heater on the second leg. Which means that if plugged into 50amp power all is good but otherwise the water heater will be LP only.
Always choices and compromises. I hope this will be a good choice.
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Interesting information you learned and shared. Thanks for that jatrax.
Obviously you feel it is worth the added cost for 50-amp service. But I wonder otherwise. Also as others mentioned, handling the thick & heavy cord will be much more difficult. Another point is that 30-amp 20-foot extension cords are readily available and affordable. And they weigh enough already. I suppose you could adapt 50-amp to a 30-amp extension cord. I carry two of them but use only one power hog at a time under those conditions. Only once in Black Canyon Of The Gunnison did I utilize two extension cords to run our roof a/c during a very hot visit there. Needless to say, I made sure it was the only thing running.
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As the picture I posted shows, it looks like our 50 amp service is wired as you described (water heater on second leg)
Having the ability to run just about anything and not worry about it is important to us. It also more readily allows us to travel in hotter/colder climates with little change in how we live in our PC.
The weight of the cable is a non issue for us. We don't carry 30 amp cables, just adapters which we've only needed to use at a couple of places that didn't have 50 amp service. Since 30 amp extension cables are widely available we decided to buy one if/when we ever needed one. We haven't needed to yet.
While we've only been RV'ing for a few short years, we have noticed that the 50 amp plugs and breakers on the power pedestals in campgrounds and RV parks are generally in much better shape than their 30/20 amp counterparts.
- Mike
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Obviously you feel it is worth the added cost for 50-amp service. But I wonder otherwise.
Ron, you might be right, I do not know. We are not experienced campers, this is our first RV. But we talked it over and felt for our lifestyle it would be worth it. Could be wrong, time will tell. But no way to retrofit 50 later.
- The cord is heavier but not so much as to be a burden. I went to Camping World and picked up and carried both a 30 amp and a 50 amp one and have no issue with either.
- 50 amp is the future I think, any new park built will have 50 amp service.
- As Pax notes, at any park that has both the 50 amp gets less use or is newer so is in better shape.
- We are both still working and will have an on board office including computers, printer and other gear. Our power budget is more downsized home than camper.
- Wife is an avid cook and the thought of not being able to use microwave and A/C at the same time was an issue with her.
Ron you are in good company, both Earl and Kermit tried to talk me out of it, with very good arguments.
Anyway it's done and I will let everyone know next spring whether it was a good plan.
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When I had my house wire with an 50 amp outside plug I did not need it then. Later I upgraded to a larger motorhome that used 50 amps, I was very glad I had done it that way. Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C. I think you are doing the right thing in getting the 50 amp option. You can never have to much power but you can have to little in a motorhome. I am happy to see you did go to Camping World and look at the difference between the 30 and 50 amp cords. Make sure you get a 30 amp male to 50 amp felmale plug for when the campground does not have 50 amp service.
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jatrax, Here are some additional thoughts about the 50-amp service versus 30-amp service.
Per your information, the second leg is typically dedicated to the second a/c unit. You have requested that the water heater be included in that second leg which places you in a league all your own in the world of PCs.
But I wonder about this. For all PCs out there with 50-amp service and two a/c units, what about the first leg? What is it's amp rating? Is it half of 50 amps? If so, then the entire rig (minus the second a/c unit) has only 25-amp service, not 30-amp service as is with a full 30-amp service PC. If so, it would seem that is worse, not better.
Is my logic all messed up, or do I have it right?
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Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C.
Hi Tom,
Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552? If so, why?
Ron
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But I wonder about this. For all PCs out there with 50-amp service and two a/c units, what about the first leg? What is it's amp rating? Is it half of 50 amps?
Ron,
An RV 30 amp service is single phase 30 amps. The receptacle has only one 'hot', a ground and a neutral. It is similar in concept to a regular residential receptacle except it is fused and wired for up to 30 amps which would be 10 gauge copper at reasonable lengths. And of course the receptacle is different. This system produces 3,600 watts (amps * volts = watts)
An RV 50 amp service is two phase 50 amps. It has two "hots", a ground, and a neutral. So each leg or phase gets 50 amps. Phase #1 = 50 amps @120volt and phase #2 = 50 amps @120 volts. You could (and some motorhomes do, but not Phoenix) use both phases to get up to 50 amps @240 volts by using both phases. This is similar to a residential dryer receptacle. Depending on how you break it out you can get two 50 amp 120 volt circuits or one 50 amp 240 volt circuit. This system produces up to 12,000 watts. (50*120*2)
In my case everything will be on phase #1 except the water heater which will be on phase #2. In a dual A/C coach everything would be on phase #1 except the second A/C unit. Nothing on phase #2 is available unless you are plugged into 50 amp shore power. Phase #1 with everything on it will be able to supply up to 50 amps when plugged in to shore power. That is 6,000 watts instead of the 3,600 available with 30 amp power. The generator and 30 amp shore power will supply only phase #1 and only 30 amps.
There is an adapter made (30male>50female) that can be plugged into single phase 30 amp shore power. A 50 amp coach cord is then plugged into that and both legs of the coach will be powered up but with a maximum of 30 amps split between both legs of the 50 amp system. This is NOT 15 and 15, but 30 split as needed as both coach phases would be tied together.
I suspect the generator could be wired the same way but I have no experience with that so it might not be possible.
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Make sure you get a 30 amp male to 50 amp female plug for when the campground does not have 50 amp service.
Thanks Tom, already ordered. :)
Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552? If so, why?
Can't speak for Tom but there have been several posts on this forum with folks glad to have the dual A/C system. I can think of a few reasons:
- spare A/C if one dies
- run the one in front when sleeping and the one in back when up front to keep the noise down
- better balance of cooling on larger coaches
I often see big class A's with three A/C units.
I elected to go with the single A/C unit because I wanted to reserve as much roof real estate as possible for solar panels.
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Phoenix did not offer 50 amps when I bought this PC. If they had I would of gotten it along with the second A/C.
Hi Tom,
Are you saying that you wished you had two a/c units for your 2552? If so, why?
Ron
See jatrax's answer above. Plus when sitting on the beach in Myrtle Beach or any where in a hot climate the single 13500 A/C is just not enough for me.
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Thank You jatrax and Tom Hanlon for the explanation and answers to all my questions. It makes a lot more sense to me now. 50 amp service does offer nearly twice the power to general house operations (6000 watts compared to 3600 watts). That makes for easy no-thought power management. Unless doing something extreme, feel free to use the appliances you need, even if more than one at a time.
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That makes for easy no-thought power management.
And that is the key for me. No question 30 amp will work, with thought. And experienced campers are used to it. But for me, I don't want to think about power management, just go about our routine without concern.