Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dynadave on April 13, 2016, 06:28:02 pm
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Has anybody installed the Koni FSD shocks on the large Phoenix units such as a 2900 or 3100? If so what were their results, was there a noticeable difference. I am satisfied with the ride and handling with my 3100 which is 6 years old and has 25000 miles. I am thinking of replacing the shocks but may wait, I would do it if I knew the ride and handling would be improved. The suspension is all original. The Konis get a lot of good reviews on the class A units but not much has been posted on the E450 chassis.
Thanks,
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All ears here too.
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Old thread I know however I'm getting ready to order shocks for my unit and wondering if anyone here has first hand knowledge on Koni FSD shocks. I have no issue with the price over Brillstein's if the difference is beneficial. However I don't want to throw away money either if there is no discernible difference.
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Very old thread update. Koni front shock with less than 40,000 miles failed. In a matter of a few hundred miles it ruined a tire with less than 10,000 miles on it. Their Warranty means nothing when you’re thousands of miles from home. Over priced crap that makes your rig ride lighter… only because your wallet is lighter. Never been happy with them and lesson learned. I got stuck buying what’s available at summit racing which is a Gabriel max. When I get home I’m guessing I’ll swamp them all out for Bilsteins. I have no experience with Summit but at the $53 price point I’m not expecting a lot—- who knows
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Very old thread update. Koni front shock with less than 40,000 miles failed. In a matter of a few hundred miles it ruined a tire with less than 10,000 miles on it. Their Warranty means nothing when you’re thousands of miles from home. Over priced crap that makes your rig ride lighter… only because your wallet is lighter. Never been happy with them and lesson learned. I got stuck buying what’s available at summit racing which is a Gabriel max. When I get home I’m guessing I’ll swamp them all out for Bilsteins. I have no experience with Summit but at the $53 price point I’m not expecting a lot—- who knows
Curious... What makes you think a Gabriel Max is a much worse shock than a Koni? Marketing? Would you think it a better shock if they went for $145 apiece?
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Very old thread update. Koni front shock with less than 40,000 miles failed. In a matter of a few hundred miles it ruined a tire with less than 10,000 miles on it. Their Warranty means nothing when you’re thousands of miles from home. Over priced crap that makes your rig ride lighter… only because your wallet is lighter. Never been happy with them and lesson learned.
Hi Joseph,
I am very curious. How did your front Koni-FSD shocks fail? Did they start leaking oil? Did the top bushings wear away? Was it something else?
My red Koni-RV adjustable shocks (not the FSD type) were shot after roughly 35,000 miles, and yes, they messed up my front tires like yours did. CLICK HERE (https://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php?topic=3580.msg30529#msg30529) to see how my red adjustable Koni shocks failed. I included many detailed pictures.
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Volk, the Gabriel shocks are generic for lack of a better term. It’s a one size fits all. So it’s designed for a Ford E450 van. Same one is sold for a ambulance, plumbers van or motorhome. Is it good enough? Possibly. Do I enjoy changing one out in the dirt in a campground with limited tools..no. So I will probably go with the bilsteins at 114 each. The Koni was much more and I was never satisfied with them. The Bil shocks are different models are vehicle specific. Different shocks for a van vs a motorhome. Lastly read the reviews on the Monroe and Gabriel when used on heavy vehicles. Now on lighter pickups, suv etc I read a lot of favorable reviews.
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Ron, it collapsed, no rebound left at all. Tire started bouncing and being on a really rough road it took my hard head a couple hundred miles to accept it wasn’t all road causing the thump thump thump as I drove along. It was the tire bouncing and tearing the tire up.
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Ron, it collapsed, no rebound left at all. Tire started bouncing and being on a really rough road it took my hard head a couple hundred miles to accept it wasn’t all road causing the thump thump thump as I drove along. It was the tire bouncing and tearing the tire up.
So it was an internal failure that caused the shock to loose all resistance......like having no shock at all.
I realize the timing/location was terrible, but once back home, why did you decide "not" to pursue Koni's lifetime warranty? Even if only to sell them?
Do you have pictures of your Koni-FSD shocks? I wonder how its mounting hardware compares to the red Koni-RV and my HD Bilsteins.
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Volk, the Gabriel shocks are generic for lack of a better term. It’s a one size fits all. So it’s designed for a Ford E450 van. Same one is sold for a ambulance, plumbers van or motorhome. Is it good enough? Possibly. Do I enjoy changing one out in the dirt in a campground with limited tools..no. So I will probably go with the bilsteins at 114 each. The Koni was much more and I was never satisfied with them. The Bil shocks are different models are vehicle specific. Different shocks for a van vs a motorhome. Lastly read the reviews on the Monroe and Gabriel when used on heavy vehicles. Now on lighter pickups, suv etc I read a lot of favorable reviews.
AMEN on changing parts out in a parking lot... got that merit badge a few times. :lol
I sometimes (well, often...) discount reviews. Especially when short on facts and heavy on 'feels'.
What I have experienced... so empirical 'fact' at best .. When people buy things for their vehicle, especially 'high end', they generally seem to praise the heck out of it , and I feel it is to self-justify the purchase. Understandable, who wants to spend more on a product , and then admit that it wasnt the best choice?
Its usually SOME time later you find they really didnt have a clue. If you ever find out, that is. But being in the Automotive repair/customizing world for years, I have seen several ' The Rest of the Story' moments happen. ;) (I miss Paul Harvey... :'( )
And the Monroe RV shocks really are not that much less than Bilsteins... Both names I have learned to trust. 2o2
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Ron, I’m not home, I’m on the road so the warranty isn’t an option right now. I’ve stated before how I wasn’t impressed with Koni. I also contacted Koni before and without the receipt, which I lost, it’s a no go.
Yes an internal failure, no oil leaked. When I took it off and set it on the table it retracted under its own weight
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Volk, I agree, people will say something is the greatest ever rather than admitting the purchase wasn’t all the at. I’m the opposite, I call it out on my own bad choices. I’m not ashamed to admit to it and sometimes it makes me think a bit more down the road. The Gabriel max I just installed I was able to compress for install without having to lay into it and strap it down for install. Hence I know it’s not as heavy duty as I’d like. Maybe I’m wrong and I’ll be impressed once we leave this campground but my hopes aren’t too high. The bilsteins I last helped someone install I had to strap down to install. A lot more rebound, the Gabriel I installed the top and was able to push the bottom up with one hand to install. When I was 40 I could do a lot like this not so much anymore.
And I miss Paul as well. I still go back and listen to some of speeches now and then. He saw so far into the future but if he was alive today he’d be the last to say I told you so.
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I also contacted Koni before and without the receipt, which I lost, it’s a no go.
Yes an internal failure, no oil leaked. When I took it off and set it on the table it retracted under its own weight
Ah, no receipt = no warranty....typical.
Interesting failure, acting like no shock at all.
I purchased a high mileage Saturn Sky with a very rough ride. I changed it's shocks in hopes to improve handling. One original front shock was like a solid rod, impossible to compress. One original rear shock compressed about 1/3 of the way and then stopped. Each had a minor oil leak too.
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The Gabriel max I just installed I was able to compress for install without having to lay into it and strap it down for install. Hence I know it’s not as heavy duty as I’d like. Maybe I’m wrong and I’ll be impressed once we leave this campground but my hopes aren’t too high. The bilsteins I last helped someone install I had to strap down to install. A lot more rebound, the Gabriel I installed the top and was able to push the bottom up with one hand to install. When I was 40 I could do a lot like this not so much anymore.
The heavy duty Bilstein-RV shocks I installed a few years ago, took "all I had" to compress them to align with the lower mount. I remember thinking I will never be able to change these shocks again because I will be too old to do it.
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Ron I really can’t criticize the Gabriel’s when I’ve yet to drive with it. I’m guessing the tears in Gabriel’s would be much stiffer.
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Ron, recall me saying this shock is too light weight? Well I couldn’t let it go, kept digging and found if you do a search day for coach house Rv you’ll get a different part number. So I called Gabriel and spoke to tech support. The shock sold to me at summit fits a E450 but not designed for a heavy load such as a motorhome. The hydraulic shocks are I need are not that much more in cost but deliver a lot more rebound force etc. I’ll need to replace both near term. I’ll be at my friends in Tennesse in a about a month. I hope to change them out there. In the mean time what I got should at least save my tire from any further damage.
I ordered the Gabriel’s over bilsteins for the front due to availability. Billsteins are 114 each compared to Gabs at 75.00. Tech numbers appear similar
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Joseph,
It was unfortunate that Summit didn't have the "heavy duty" version on hand to sell to you.
The same general story applies to the Bilstein options. There are two different shocks for the same E350/E450 application, but one is referred to as "For Class C Motorhomes", hence the constant reference to "HD Bilstein-RV".
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Those softer front shocks may actually work out ok. I have Bilstein HD's on the back and Bilstein comfort series (also referred to as swb motorhome shocks) on the front. This setup was recommended for short wheelbase motorhomes (2350) by Eric's RV suspension in Seattle. I am really pleased with the ride and handling. As you probably know Bils HD's are extremely stiff. I did the rears myself (why??) but paid a shop $120 to install the fronts. The service writer said he will charge the next customer $180, and they weren't even HD's. Much respect to you sir :)(:
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Cal, the issue with the front is the drivers side. Most shops for what ever reason are not aware there is an excess point under the drivers side carpet that makes it much less problematic to change out. I won’t stay with light weight shocks on the front of my 2552. The one hydraulic Koni failed and the other side is on its way with less than 40k miles. The lighter weight gas shock I’m sure will do fine for now but I wouldn’t expect it to last as long as a hydraulic shock.
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Ron, my own fault. When I called the 800 number they said they had the bilsteins in stock, when I arrived they did not and I asked what they had for a 450 motorhome. I know better. , trust but verify. I didn't do my research once I found out the bils weren’t in stock.
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Joseph, I will always wonder about Cal's comment concerning the use of "comfort" shocks up front. He makes an excellent point for installing them up front in the shorter models that are tail-heavy and front-light. If you don't get the dreaded up/down porpoise action in your 2552, maybe you have the better front shocks right now.
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Ron good point but I can’t help but think if the heavier duty shock only lasted 30,xxx miles how long will gas charged light weight suv, pickup shocks last? It’s not a job I enjoy doing at home all that much, on the road even less so I want as much longevity as I can get. My front end never seemed to have bad ride but the tail is like a lumber wagon
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I realize everybody has different likes and dislikes about ride comfort, stability, control and so forth. But you should all remember, the #1 job of a shock absorber is to keep the tire tread flat ON the road surface. They are designed by supposed well trained and certified automotive engineers. They are designed to work hand in hand (so to speak) with springs. An "E450" can be anything from an Econoline van to an ambulance to a passenger bus to a 2 Ton box truck. There isn't one shock absorber designed to work on all those "E450's"
So, all I am really saying is when you decide which shocks to buy, make sure they are designed to work with your exact vehicle configuration.
To be honest, the manufacturer of your completed vehicle (in this case.... Phoenix, not Ford) *should* know best. 2nd best would be someone with the knowledge of "sprung weight", spring rate and max travel of the axle.
And now.. I will get off my high horse.
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I wouldn’t bother asking Phoenix. They send them out with the bone stock generic shocks. Now when I went to sites like Gabriel they list Rv’s such as coach house who require specific shocks for their units. Maybe that’s why CH charges what they do for their rigs.
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Now when I went to sites like Gabriel they list Rv’s such as coach house who require specific shocks for their units.
Link please?
Been researching shocks, as my Autozone Cheapo fronts prolly wont last another 2 years. And the rears are original AFAIK. Always been a Gabriel and Monroe fan for HD truck stuff. Loved bilstiens in the VW's.
And from hearsay I have learned, changing shocks/steering/springs etc from Factory 'incomplete chassis' OEM requires the entire chassis to be re-certified costing $$$$. Might be part of the Coach House cost/value! Good point.
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https://gabriel.com/mobile/heavy-duty/vehicle-search?make=COACH+HOUSE+RV&series=Class+C+MotorHomes
Well there’s no doubt PC and many others take what comes direct from Ford or Chevy and just adds their box to it. Most don’t even align the front end after adding all that weight. The cost for the first alignment with all the added weight and needed shims for cambers 250 or more.
Volk I used the coach house as a reference to make my choice. Just basing it on similar size. I could be worlds wrong in doing it this way. Just using SWAG and hoping for the best.
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https://gabriel.com/mobile/heavy-duty/vehicle-search?make=COACH+HOUSE+RV&series=Class+C+MotorHomes
Well there’s no doubt PC and many others take what comes direct from Ford or Chevy and just adds their box to it. Most don’t even align the front end after adding all that weight. The cost for the first alignment with all the added weight and needed shims for cambers 250 or more.
Volk I used the coach house as a reference to make my choice. Just basing it on similar size. I could be worlds wrong in doing it this way. Just using SWAG and hoping for the best.
NO worries! Sometimes SWAG is a good start.
I think the folks at Gabriel had someone who had drive setting up the shock reference chart. Out of curiosity, I looked for PC. And it was listed! (cheer)
But going to the page....same numbers as CH. Only difference is that PC's page lists E350 and E450, where CH's page lists only E450.
Try Georgie Boy class C....same shocks, front and rear.
Tried 'Ford E series' ...you know it, same numbers.
Looks like if you want front shocks on a 99-20 E series 3/450....83177 is the answer. Regardless of brand. >(
Some good data though...maybe??
Front shocks -
Rebound: 690 lb.
Compression: 275 lb.
Rear shocks -
Rebound: 690 lb.
Compression: 275 lb.
Or is it... I would have thought front and rear to be different. (WH)
Monroe's link doesnt give numbers, >( but DOES give front options as far as rv/ambulance. :) 3 options for the rear! (severe duty, ambulance/rv and 'regular')
http://www.monroe.com/en-US/e-catalog and i used 2006 Ford E350 in the queries.
Went to Koni.. https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Home/ ... and they list one shock for Ford E350/450 under RV. Automotive has F350...but no listing for E series. (WH)
I would think a company that touts themselves as a 'premium' choice would give me SOMETHING to base that on, aside from price.
Bilstein seems to give you choices of stock/short WB RV and long wheelbase RV.
How frustrating. At least with tires, you got 'Apples to Apples' specs across vendors and brands. With shocks it seems that there is...well....a lot of hoopla, opinion and marketing terms. VERY little data that allows a direct comparison. So far. Still looking!
I dont mind paying more.... but need to know WHY I am paying more. :)(:
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I wouldn’t bother asking Phoenix. They send them out with the bone stock generic shocks. Now when I went to sites like Gabriel they list Rv’s such as coach house who require specific shocks for their units. Maybe that’s why CH charges what they do for their rigs.
I can't say what Phoenix is doing today, but back when Kermit owned it, the cutaway were ordered witb the Motorhome prep package and full 14,500 gvwr package.
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I wouldn’t bother asking Phoenix. They send them out with the bone stock generic shocks. Now when I went to sites like Gabriel they list Rv’s such as coach house who require specific shocks for their units. Maybe that’s why CH charges what they do for their rigs.
I can't say what Phoenix is doing today, but back when Kermit owned it, the cutaway were ordered witb the Motorhome prep package and full 14,500 gvwr package.
The motorhome prep package has always been deficient when it comes to stabilizer bars and shocks. I don't know about 2022, but back in 2007, the E350 motorhome prep package, the rear stabilizer bar was void, the front bar was the same installed on an E150 van, and the shocks were identical to an E250 van.......surely prep'd with those under-rated components, direct from Ford.
The motorhome prep package has no mirrors, no seats (just a temporary cafeteria seat), no carpet, a beefier alternator, and creature comforts that were optional in vans such as power windows and door locks. It also came with two lengths of antennas, a shorter one to clear a typical class-C bed over-hang. I know I missed some things, but you get the idea.
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I wouldn’t bother asking Phoenix. They send them out with the bone stock generic shocks. Now when I went to sites like Gabriel they list Rv’s such as coach house who require specific shocks for their units. Maybe that’s why CH charges what they do for their rigs.
I can't say what Phoenix is doing today, but back when Kermit owned it, the cutaway were ordered witb the Motorhome prep package and full 14,500 gvwr package.
The motorhome prep package has always been deficient when it comes to stabilizer bars and shocks. I don't know about 2022, but back in 2007, the E350 motorhome prep package, the rear stabilizer bar was void, the front bar was the same installed on an E150 van, and the shocks were identical to an E250 van.......surely prep'd with those under-rated components, direct from Ford.
The motorhome prep package has no mirrors, no seats (just a temporary cafeteria seat), no carpet, a beefier alternator, and creature comforts that were optional in vans such as power windows and door locks. It also came with two lengths of antennas, a shorter one to clear a typical class-C bed over-hang. I know I missed some things, but you get the idea.
Who knows what changed between 2007 and 2014 when my chassis was built. I don't know if the 2350 is built on a lengthened chassis or not, but whoever does the chassis lengthening, *should* also update suspension components such as shocks and sway bars. I can't tell you if they did or didn't, but after close to 70,000 miles on my 2015 model 2551, I have zero problems with sway, most crosswinds, passing or being passed by semi's or road bounce. So whoever had my shocks and sway bars upgraded or just what was installed at the assembly line seems fine to me.
I do plan on looking into new front shocks over the winter. Plain and simple, 75,000 miles (what I will have on it by then) seems 'about time'. I don't have any visible leakage, no front end bounce, etc. I will replace with Monroe which have always given me good service over the years.
I once calculated my approximate total driving mileage, it's well over a million miles and never had a shock failure like others in this thread have had.
Obviously, others have different opinions... And that's OK.
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Volk, yup, nothing simple. Every time a person thinks they have it figured out …….
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Don. Sometimes your the windshield, sometimes your the bug.
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Don. Sometimes your the windshield, sometimes your the bug.
Very true!
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Who knows what changed between 2007 and 2014 when my chassis was built. I don't know if the 2350 is built on a lengthened chassis or not, but whoever does the chassis lengthening, *should* also update suspension components such as shocks and sway bars. I can't tell you if they did or didn't, but after close to 70,000 miles on my 2015 model 2551, I have zero problems with sway, most crosswinds, passing or being passed by semi's or road bounce. So whoever had my shocks and sway bars upgraded or just what was installed at the assembly line seems fine to me.
I do plan on looking into new front shocks over the winter. Plain and simple, 75,000 miles (what I will have on it by then) seems 'about time'. I don't have any visible leakage, no front end bounce, etc. I will replace with Monroe which have always given me good service over the years.
I once calculated my approximate total driving mileage, it's well over a million miles and never had a shock failure like others in this thread have had.
Obviously, others have different opinions... And that's OK.
It has been my observation that models 2551 and 2552 are the best balanced PC models. They draw the least complaints from their owners with regards to handling issues. The worst handling PC models are the shortest ones where there is so much rear over-hang compared to the wheel base. But I also feel that every PC regardless of model, will benefit from heavy duty stabilizer bars and shock absorbers.
BTW: Models 2100 and 2350 are the only two current PC models with an unmodified wheel base. All others are sent out to be stretched by a Ford certified outfitter.