Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Waterdog on March 26, 2016, 01:55:24 pm
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Looking it buying a used 2551 . There are a couple used 2006 on the the E350 chassis for sale and some newer unit on the E450 chassis right now . Is the newer 2551 on the E 450 chassis worth the price different ? I do realize the newer units are worth more because of age and mileage .This would be my frist RV ever and not sure how much I would use it. What we are trying to decide is what is wrong with the older and cheaper 2006 2551 over said 2011 2551 and $20000 more dollars .
Thank You
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A key question is what is the condition of these units? An older Rv that has had proper maintenance and care can be a great way to save some money. However if it has been abused and or neglected you will probably regret buying it unless you enjoy fixing, rebuilding, and spending money that you probably didn't plan on . You may also experience delays or worse a ruined vacation. There are problems with brand new rvs so I am not saying that a newer Rv will automatically have fewer problems than an older one but generally that is what you could expect. Be sure to drive any used unit and to test all appliances and systems. Look for any signs of water intrusion , stains on ceilings, walls, around windows etc. this is bad news in any Rv. It would be good to have an inspection done by a third party.
A big difference between the E350 and E450 is the suspension and weight carrying capacity, check the CCC on the manufacturers label. The 450 will have more capacity if you are going to load it with a lot of stuff or possibly a trailer with significant tongue weight. Good luck in your search, I think the Phoenix Cruisers on very well built and a good choice.
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You should think about the availability of parts for repairs on a ten or more year old unit. Not only the truck parks, but all the house parts like a/c, refer, electrical and body parts as well. Depending where you live, big city or small town can make a diffeence in getting parts. Also when and where you travel to. Problems have a way of happening in the worse places.
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Tires and batteries are high cost items. Tires recommended replacement is every six years. Check the sidewall for the manufacture date on the tire.
Ron
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Some good input from others.
As for me, I would consider the 2006 PC2551/E350 if it was in decent shape and priced accordingly. I think the weight distribution on them is better than for the 2350/E350 (what we own) of the same generation which makes up for some of the difference being a little heavier. One good thing about the E350 is that it will offer a softer ride. I have not read so in a very long time, but I do recall long ago, owners complaining that their 2551 on the E450 had a rough ride. It might have had too much surplus of chassis capability over actual weight, feeling more like an empty box truck bouncing down the road. Maybe they resolved the problem by carrying more stuff ???
One thing certain, if the previous 2006/E350 owner did not invest in heavy duty stabilizer bars, I would plan to invest in them for decent handling. The E350 made before 2008 has NO rear stabilizer bar unless added later. And the stock Ford-installed front stabilizer bar is very wimpy, adding that the poorly designed end bushings wear out exceptionally fast rendering the wimpy bar even less effective. Heavy duty front & rear stabilizer bars will do miracles for the handling, and they hold up beautifully for they mount differently. Much of the problem goes away with a 2008 or newer Ford chassis E350 and E450 for the front bar design is better. Even though not heavy duty, because there is one in front and back and mounted well for both E350 & E450, they are more effective than 2007 and older.
I think 2007 was the first year PC came standard with two batteries and the whole house inverter, so keep that in-mind if critical for you. I personally would be okay with a single house battery if all house-battery-supported lighting is converted to low wattage LED to conserve electricity, and don't exclusively camp without power-pole electricity. Two batteries are essential without hook ups in cold weather and relying on the furnace overnight. Remember.......when your house battery(s) is dead, so is your fridge.
I would not worry about E350 part availability because the Ford E-Series is extremely popular. Parts for old E350s are everywhere in stock and will likely remain so for many more years to come for there are so many older Ford E-series vans, box trucks, ambulances, and motor homes abound. The proof is that you can easily get parts anywhere in the USA for the E-series made in the late 80's, and the chassis has been more popular than ever since those days.
As far as PC specific house parts are concerned, most are used today in 2016 model years. I would not worry about that either.
Appliances and such might be another story in later years. You might have to replace an appliance 10 to 15 years from now, instead of repair it. But then maybe it's time to replace anyway for the sake of age alone.
A garage kept (or otherwise protected) 2006 2551 cream puff, priced right would be under my consideration. Not so much if weather-beaten with dried up caulk and showing water damage. Paying $20,000 more to get a rig 5 years newer, updated and well preserved could be worth the extra cost.
The cost percentage makes a little difference to me as well.
If the 2006 is $30,000 and the 2011 is $50,000 that is 70% more. I may favor the 2006
If the 2006 is $50,000 and the 2011 is $70,000 that is 40% more. I may favor the 2011
Ron here with all my bla bla bla..... :) Sorry if it's a bit much.
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One other thing to look into would be the equipment included in each RV. Since these units are highly (and generally) configurable/upgradable, one may have two a/c units and 50 amp service and the other may have one a/c unit and 30 amp service, for example. Also, Kermit is always putting better equipment in these things every year, so generationally you'll get a better overall unit I would think.
- Mike
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I want to thank every one for the great ideas . After reading your comments and thinking about how we think how we will use this PC a 2007 or newer is the way to go . The battery invertor issue is big deal for us as we want to be able go off and not need to plug in . We also want the option of pulling a trailer some times . So Buying a low mileage 2006 would still need upgrades and this all adds to the cost of ownership compared to buying a newer PC. There is also the issue of resale to an older unit to consider . We will keep looking and narrowing the list of what we think is the best fit for us.
Thank You again
L
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The battery invertor issue is big deal for us as we want to be able go off and not need to plug in . We also want the option of pulling a trailer some times . So Buying a low mileage 2006 would still need upgrades and this all adds to the cost of ownership compared to buying a newer PC.
Considering the importance to you of the 2-battery-supported inverter and heavy duty stabilizer bars, I would not simply rule out every 2006. It is a question to ask the seller, if their rig has them. I thought Phoenix started installing twin batteries and whole house inverter as an option for 2006, or maybe it was a mid-year introduction.
When looking at the pictures of the 2006 in question.....If the battery storage compartment is mounted chest high (I believe on the 2551 driver side), the rig has a single battery. If the compartment is mounted low on the passenger side like today, it has two batteries and also the whole house inverter.
I feel the biggest leap forward Phoenix made was early in the 2004 model year when they introduced the current-day rear wall with integrated spare tire & storage compartments along with the current-day main entry door. Those two improvements are big winners by me. That rear wall is so very solid, functional, and it looks good. It does wonders in strengthening the house. The double-wall strength it offers is so much stronger than earlier model years. The current-day entry door introduced at the same time in 2004 is so very solid compared to the older PC door design, and also beats the competition. I tell people shopping for a PC to consider no older than a 2004 for those two reasons alone, unless an earlier one is priced so attractively.
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Looking it buying a used 2551 . There are a couple used 2006 on the the E350 chassis for sale and some newer unit on the E450 chassis right now . Is the newer 2551 on the E 450 chassis worth the price different ? I do realize the newer units are worth more because of age and mileage .This would be my frist RV ever and not sure how much I would use it. What we are trying to decide is what is wrong with the older and cheaper 2006 2551 over said 2011 2551 and $20000 more dollars .
Thank You
I have one for sale. 2010 2551 with 33,000 miles. E450 Chassis. Listed on www.cragislist.com in Lancaster Pa area.
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Clicking the Craigslist link in the above post kept resulting in a pop-up for me. It looks to be spelled incorrectly. I would advise caution if using the link and with any pop-ups which might result.
Jim
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If I type "cragislist.com"... as is posted in the link, I get to a advertiser pop-up. This is exactly the same as I get if I click the provided link. As I cannot see the underlying hyperlink, I believe they both match. I can't explain what you are seeing... or not seeing.
Jim
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Jim, I did get that popup too. I see the problem. Frecklestweety misspelled craigslist. CLICK HERE (http://lancaster.craigslist.org/rvs/5485585500.html) to see her ad.
I see her rig is built on a 2008 chassis, the only year of the current-day chassis with all the latest improvements, but with the earlier dash board design. Apparently the current-day dash board wasn't ready for 2008. I find it interesting how the dash board is interchangeable.
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I have contacted the owner and it seems to be in very good condition with new tires and battery's . Why would the Dashboard matter ? Right now their is 2011 2551 for sale in FLA with same mileage for 5k more . We are trying to get all information to make an informed decision .
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I think that unit is priced $10K too high. Ask Earl, he has the best idea of resale value. 4 years ago my 6 year old 2551 sold for under $40K.
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Looking it buying a used 2551 . There are a couple used 2006 on the the E350 chassis for sale and some newer unit on the E450 chassis right now . Is the newer 2551 on the E 450 chassis worth the price different ? I do realize the newer units are worth more because of age and mileage .This would be my frist RV ever and not sure how much I would use it. What we are trying to decide is what is wrong with the older and cheaper 2006 2551 over said 2011 2551 and $20000 more dollars .
Thank You
I have one for sale. 2010 2551 with 33,000 miles. E450 Chassis. Listed on www.cragislist.com in Lancaster Pa area.
Corrected website is www.craigslist.com.
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Why would the Dashboard matter ?
The current-day 2009-2016 dash board design offers a glove box (none in older), two levels of door pockets (one in older) two center console storage compartments (one in older) and the two 12V outlets are located in a better place, out of the way of the driver gear shift lever.....adding Barry-Sue input below...also has a 3rd 12V outlet inside the glove box for hidden charging.
Here are the two at a glance. It matters more to some people than to others. Some people actually appreciate the older design for it feels more like a car. The newer design has more of a "commercial" look & feel to it, and it sits a little taller than the older design as noted looking at the windshield wipers.
I personally prefer function over feel, but my wife thinks the other way around. I have a hard time changing our incandescent light bulbs in the house to LEDs because they don't dim to a soft yellow glow. They instead dim to a white glow. Sheesh! Gotta love her.
2008 and older design
(http://www.conceptcarz.com/images/Ford/ford_E-Series_manu-08_i01-1024.jpg)
2009 and newer design
(http://bestcarmag.com/sites/default/files/7754547ford-eseries-van-2011-5.jpg)
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Why would the Dashboard matter ?
We have experience with both dashes. On our 2008 we had the older dash style and on our 2012 we have the newer dash style. What we really like about the newer style is the design of the vents. When they are closed you do not feel anything from them, in our 2008 we could never completely close them off. We always felt air getting passed the closed vent.
There is much more storage on the newer style and the glove box is a nice added bonus. There is also a 12 volt outlet in the glove box in addition to the 2 outlets in the dash.
Corrected post to say 12 volt
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Why would the Dashboard matter ?
There is also a 12 volt outlet in the glove box in addition to the 2 outlets in the dash.
NICE!
Corrected to coincide with Barry-Sue's 12V correction :)
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Ron,
YES - it is a 12 volt. It is great for charging things when you want to hide them.
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I have to said how impressed I 'am with information everyone has provided here . after reveiw all the posts a newer PC has a lot of advantages . It looks to me like has years go up the price goes up about $5000 per year . Of course the options and mileage make a differents but you have to look it each unit and what it is worth to us. So for now we are looking it what is on the market and looking it asking prices and then looking to NADA for an idea of its real value . The range now is from a 2009 to 2012 for 2551 with a low milage 2012 5252 thrown in . The other factor is the distance of 500 miles to 2800 miles and the cost of getting it home to northern Mich . This may take a while to work this out .
Thank you for your help
Bill Seaman
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Bill,
We are in lower Michigan with a 2012 2551. If you are near the Ann Arbor area and want to see a 2551 we are more than willing to show you ours.
We do travel to Northern Michigan a lot in the summer.
Barry and Sue
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Thank you for the offer we may take you up on it . I will let you know when we will be down state next.
Bill a Seaman
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What we really like about the newer style is the design of the vents. When they are closed you do not feel anything from them, in our 2008 we could never completely close them off. We always felt air getting passed the closed vent.
My wife Irene can relate to this. She complains I like it a little cooler than she does and cannot completely close the vents on her side.
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Well i'am not sure what to think of the 2010 2551 listed of crag list . How could a 2010 have the old dash board in it ? I send some time yesterday searching and all the pictures of 2009 and 2010s I could find and they all have the new style dash board . Something is fishey here . I could ask Earl it the factory for the build sheet if I wanted to think about making an offer .
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Waterdog,
I surely understand your feelings. But it is not fishy when you understand what happened in the RV industry in those days. Sales died during the 2008 recession. RV companies went out of business with virgin 2008 chassis of all makes & models at a nation-wide surplus. Determined survivors like Phoenix bought them at auction for cheap and passed down the discounts to consumers to encourage sales. Still by 2010, a few 2008 chassis did not get consumed. So, I would think you could negotiate a little better price with all that considered.
Keep in mind that even in better times, you will often see the chassis a year behind the year of the motor home. This is because RV manufactures release their new model year many months before the new chassis year is available. So you will see the earliest 2016 PCs being built on a 2015 Ford or Mercedes chassis. And in some cases, a surplus of a particular chassis with a particular wheel base, you might find a 2014 chassis holding up a 2016 PC. And this is not Phoenix alone. Every manufacture of motor homes have the same practices.
As is often stated on various RV forums.....no worries over mismatched motor home/chassis years. Also reiterating what I mentioned in an earlier post that every 2008 Ford chassis has the older dash board. The new dash board was introduced in 2009. It's not fishy at all, after-all.
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Well it looks like to me a 2010 or newer is the best option . With a 2010 2551 and newer I would get the full slide with coach and refigerator . This would open up the area when the slide is out and could be a big deal when traveling with 2x50lb Portugease Waterdogs . I do not know if their are any other advantages to going newer them a 2009 or so . The coach/ Bed is another issue but that is an easily replaceable item from what I can tell .
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I have a soft copy of the 2009 brochure. Every 2009 model (not just the 2551), the couch is all by itself in the slide out.
I think you are right Waterdog. If my memory is good, the 2010 was the first year of the current-day slide out which has the fridge included. Unfortunately I do not have a 2010 brochure. Phoenix did not publish a brochure for every model year.
To make the "moving fridge" work, the furnace was relocated in some models over to the passenger side. I know the 2350 has the furnace under the bed since, which reduces the size of the under-bed outside storage compartment, and the loss of one kitchen drawer to accommodate a heat register. As is always the case, there are pros and cons to every deviation.
I have soft copy brochures for 2007, 2009, 2012, and 2015 model years, in PDF fashion. If anyone wants one of them, just email me your request. My email address is in my profile.
Ron
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My 2 cents: E 450 is what you need for the length and weight of a 2551 or greater. If you could do a side by side test I think you would appreciate the ride and handling of the heavier/stronger/more rigid frame. I know I do.