Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => Tips and Tricks => Topic started by: Barry-Sue on August 20, 2015, 07:26:39 pm
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This winter the power management system on our PC was shutting down several times an hour because of low incoming voltage. I contacted the park office and they sent over a repairman to investigate the problem. He found the 30AMP breaker was burnt and replaced it. Within an hour, we had another failure. Not wanting to live with these constant power interruptions, I tried several different things but I kept getting the same results. Finally, I plugged the PC into the 20 AMP service and the power stabilized and everything ran great but I was limited in what I could run simultaneously.
I had the repairman return and do more testing. This time he measured the voltages and found the voltage on phase 1 was at 115 VAC and fluctuating but the voltage on phase 2 was at 119VAC and very solid. The repairman then opened the pedestal and moved the 30AMP breaker to phase 2 and for the next 3 weeks and we had no problems.
This gave me a chance to get a good look inside a typical 50/30/20 AMP RV Service pedestal to see how they were constructed and wired. The most obvious thing I saw was that the 50AMP service was in fact two separate 50 AMP legs or phases (phase 1 and phase 2). After doing some research it appears that the manufacturer for these pedestals typically prewires all 30 AMP breakers to phase 1 and all 20AMP breakers to phase 2. It seems when the campgrounds receive these pedestals they leave the prewiring as is, i.e. all 30AMP RV's are connected to phase 1, all 50AMPS RV's are connected to both phase 1 and phase 2 and tent sites are connected to phase 2. If an RV park has a good electrician they might change this configuration to better balance the load between the two phases.
I now concluded that the best thing for me to do when phase 1 power at 30AMPS is not stable (especially in a crowded park with numerous ACs running) would be to connect to phase 2 power at 30AMPs. This would be possible if a 50AMP to 30AMP converter were to connect the 50 AMP phase 2 hot lead to the 30AMP hot lead. I checked my 50AMP to 30AMP converter to see how it was wired and as I suspected the 30AMP receptacle was connected to phase 1. This explains why using my adaptor and connecting it to the 50AMP breaker did not improve the electric service. I looked online to see if I could purchase an adapter that was wired for phase 2 but could not find one.
Unable to find a 50AMP to 30AMP converter that connected to phase 2, I decided to find the parts and make one myself. The assembly was very simple and straight forward. The first thing I did was to cut back, cap and secure the black hot lead (phase 1 ) from the 50AMP cable. I then connected the red hot lead (phase 2) from the 50AMP cable to the hot terminal on the 30AMP receptacle. Then I connected the common (white lead) and the ground (green lead) to the corresponding terminals on the 30AMP receptacle. The final product has not been tested yet but I am confident it will work just fine. I will post an update after we return from our next trip.
Here is a list of the parts I used:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BHGXYUE?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00192MU2Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
Barry
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Great idea. I wish I had such an adapter on our recent trip where I found several parks with less than 115v on the 30amp circuit.
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Barry,
Thank you for posting your experience on the pedestal power problem.
Before this summer I didn’t know that a 50 to 30 amp converter was possible. On our first trip this summer we had just hooked up in a busy RV park with many ac units running when the pedestal 30 amp circuit breaker at our site opened several times within 30 minutes. The park repairman came by and said that the circuit breaker was probably defective, but he didn’t have the time or parts immediately available. He loaned us his 50 to 30 amp converter (I think it was a standard unit) and we had no more failures during our two-day stay.
After that experience we bought and now bring a converter with us in case this happens again where no help is easily available.
I think I’ve learned from your post that the success of the converter depends on the configuration of the wires in both the pedestal and the converter. So it seems that if this situation does happen again, we’ll have at best a 50-50 chance that it will work (probably less chance since most parks will be wired like the one in your situation).
The 50 to 30 amp converter would have the same chance to help in a case where the 30 amp circuit in the park was weak for any reason (too many users, etc.) but the 50 amp circuit was good.
Do you think I’ve got this right?
--Bruce
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Bruce
You are perfectly correct. When there is, a defective 30AMP breaker using a 50AMP to 30 AMP converter is the best solution until the 30AMP breaker can be replaced. However, when there is high power usage (lots of A/C) in a RV park and the 30AMP service is unstable, moving to the 50AMP breaker will probably NOT solve the problem. When the pedestals are used as they come prewired from the factory, then it is really phase 1 that is overloaded. Connecting to phase 1 via the 50AMP breaker will not improve your service. The way to improve service quality is to attach to phase 2.
Barry
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My wife and I recently returned from PC factory where we picked up our new 2910T from the wonderful staff. We stayed a week in the area, had a successful shakedown cruise and then headed out to St. Louis, Omaha and then home to Montana. While stopping the night in South Dakota I broke from my usual routine of checking the campground power pedastal with my special " Sure Test" Instrument and voltage meter. This setup allows me to verify correct voltage, current and wiring prior to plugging in my coach. Since I ordered my Cruiser with a hard wired Surge Gard, I just plugged in without my usual test routine. I waited the 128 second delay built into the Surge Gard and the unit let power through to the coach indicating no electrical issues or so I thought!
On one of my trips in and out of the coach during setup I noticed a "tingle" on my finger tips when I briefly touched the metal door lock. Not good, so I reached for my NON CONTACT voltage detector and found at least 50 volts at every metal point I could touch around the exterior which told me I had unwanted voltage on my coach frame. Becoming very alarmed, I immediately unplugged from the campground pedistal and checked it with my "special" tester. When I plug in this testor I expect to see all green lights indicating all is well but it showed one yellow light indicating some type of ground fault which, to my surprise, was not picked up by the Surge Gard. Next I moved my "special " tester to the pedistal in the vacant space next to mine since they were back to back. These outlets tested satisfactory and then I plugged in my coach power and all was well. Sorry for the length of this post but safety is the issue here and if others can benefit then it is worth the effort. I consider this "tingling" effect to be potentially a very dangerous condition and if found should be immediately addressed by unplugging and relocating. At any rate, I am going back to my routine of checking ALL pedestals with my "special" tester before I plug my coach at any unknown power source since my Surge Gard did not indicate this issue.
To everyone, I recommend the use of a volt meter, Sure Test indicator and non contact voltage tester everytime you hook up. Protect yourself and your rig from this danger lurking unseen at some RV parks. By the way, as soon as I found this condition, I reported it to the park management so it could be corrected before the next traveler uses it. 5:) 5:) tymote tymote
Safe travels to all.
John
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John
That "tingle" is a sure sign of trouble. Good information to share.
Barry
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Hi John,
Welcome to our merry band and thank you for the great posting.
Could you post more information about your "special" meter and maybe include a link to the company. I did a Google search for "sure test" and could only find meters that cost hundreds of dollars. This is a lot more than I can afford just to test campground post. Do you use this in your work also? Thank you.
I am looking for a meter to use in and around the RV but I don't know much about them.
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Tom, Thanks for the welcome. I am going to attempt to attached some photos of my "special" test equipment that I use to evaluate RV park electrical systems. I have tried to keep it simple and inexpensive as well. As far as the Sure Test GFCI , current, voltage and wiring tester, I have had it for many years using in my home inspection business for several years. That said, I do not know if it is still available or made under another name. I will investigate and get back to you. As you will see in the attached photos (hopefully), my test arrangement consists of several separate pieces functioning together along with a separate auto ranging volt meter and non contact voltage indicator.
A very good source of information about this equipment and how to use it can be found in a book titled as shown in one the attached pictures. I think all of this can be purchased at Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware or Amazon. Hope this helps.
John
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Welcome John! And thanks for both the report of the issue you had and the description of your test equipment.
We also have the hard-wired Surge Guard and have never encountered the issue you experienced, although we had a number of experiences where the miswired or faulty campground pedestal caused our surge guard to trip and report the issue. Sounds like something is wrong with your unit or how it is wired. Does the remote panel show a fault in its display history? When I received my rig from the factory they miswired the surge guard through the transfer switch in the wall behind the drivers seat. It is not a 'standard' install for the factory, so maybe it wasn't wired correctly?
- Mike
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Hi Mike, thanks for the response. Yes, I have 3 fault readings in memory but I cannot say when they occurred. The thing I do know for sure is that the Surge Gard did not shut down during the incident described. I am very surprised by that! All does seem to be ok with unit. Is there a way you know of to verify?
My unit is located in a compartment under the refrigerator and VERY difficult to get to and I can barely even see it. I wish I had input with PC as to its location. I did ask that it not be wired ahead of the genset but that instruction did not make it to the production line during the build cycle. Now if the Surge Gard fails, I will not be able to get any power to my rig. I cannot see any easy way to remove the unit if it does ever fail.
Anyway, off track here a little so let me know if you further questions or suggestions
Happy Travels!
Thanks
John
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John: No, I don't know how to verify if the unit is installed correctly, but since detecting ground faults is one of the primary functions of the device, which it apparently did not do, I would think that something is wrong somewhere. TRC technical support could probably help (800-780-4324)
With respect to location of the SurgeGuard in the rig......I too should have discussed it with the factory before installation. My unit is located in the wall under and next to the drivers side bed (we have a 2552). I'm not all that concerned about it though, since from what I understand only a catastrophic event (like a lightening strike or something) will cause the unit to sacrifice itself.
Regardless, I always test for a hot-skin condition when hooking up in a campground. I have seen some folks even test for it each time they enter an RV, theirs or others.
- Mike
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I find Harbor Freight to be a good source for inexpensive tools that function as described. Here are links to a voltmeter and a receptacle test that are available for under $12. Add to that a 30AMP to 15 AMP adapter plug from Amazon for $5.00 and you can test most electric problems for less than $17.00.
Barry
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-55233-Electrical-PowerGrip-Adapter/dp/B00192QB3I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440417228&sr=8-1&keywords=20amp+to+30+amp+adapter
Voltmeter
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html
Electric Receptacle Tester
http://www.harborfreight.com/electric-receptacle-tester-32906.html
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Barry, and Mike: There is another tester I highly recommend for checking presence of a hot skin condition and that is a non contact voltage detector with a sensitivity rating 90--1000volts. The unit shown in my pics below is a Klein NCV-1. It is probably the only accurate way to detect a hot skin accurately short of finding it with your fingers or a serious electrical shock. It is also available at local hardware stores and on line.
I would also recommend reading chapter 10 in the book I reference in the pics. for more detailed information about this condition.
In the meantime I am going to investigate further to see if I can determine why my Surge Gard did not shut down or detect this condition. I will let you know what I find out.
Thanks for all the great discussion. 2o2
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The September 2015 issue of MotorHome magazine has an article on page 99 entitled “Power Trip 101” that covers some of the topics included in this thread.
It is primarily focused on 50 amp hookup pedestals, but includes graphics that help me to better understand Barry’s original post here. It describes the “Leg 1 and 2” that I think Barry calls “Phase 1 and 2.”
We always use a portable Surge Guard, but seldom use our voltmeter or anything else to check the pedestal. This discussion is making me reevaluate our technique.
--Bruce
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Just returned from a short trip around Michigan and I'm glad to report that my new 50 to 30 AMP converter worked flawlessly.
Barry
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Thanks for the report Barry.