Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gail Staton on May 17, 2015, 12:27:15 pm
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After our move on Thursday and getting settled we will begin to solve our PC's poor handling issues. It handles fine on normal roads but not on high speed highways. Unfortunately, we were not near a major hwy. when we did the test drive.
I got some great advice and recommendations from Ron. Although he has a different model, he experienced the same issues with his 2350 when it was new. After replacing stabilizers, shocks, etc., his problems were solved.
I am curious if others have had unacceptable handling issues on their units? We are so disappointed and hope to resolve this problem so we can continue traveling.
Gail
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We recently did our maiden trip in our 2350. We drove about 50 interstate miles with no issues. We then drove about 800 miles towing a heavy vehicle. While towing, we did have some issues with drifting and swaying, but only with gusty crosswinds and uneven highway pavement. I did some research when we returned home and found many posts on other forums stating that the first thing you should do with a Ford E350/E450 motorhome is get the alignment checked.
We took our 2350 in for alignment last week and it was out of spec. Had the alignment done and had them set the + caster to around 5. This is still inside the Ford recommended spec and also the recommendation of a number of people on rvforum.net.
Taking another trip at the end of this week, so we'll see if there is an improvement. If not, I'll start to research/implement some of Ron's recommendations. I don't know the difference between a trac bar and stabilizer, so I have more to learn.
I'll post results after our next trip...
Bob
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Lots of previous discussion here regarding handling.
Our 2552 (as with most unloaded rigs) had some handling issues. After loading it close to what would be considered 'full' for us on a normal trip we had it aligned. Very much improved thereafter. We also added a Safe-T-Plus steering control/stabilizer which took care of windy conditions, passing trucks and hopefully added stability in case of a flat tire. Driving was very comfortable on our coast to coast trip last year.
- Mike
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Gail,
Bob is right, the first thing we did was get an alignment on both our 2008 2350 and 2012 2551.
If the front end seems to be wandering you may need some heavy duty shocks. On our 2350 we put bilstein on the front end only, that took care of all the wandering issues. To eliminate the wind, truck passing issues, and back end swaying we had a blue ox tiger trac bar installed. That took care of everything and our 2350 drove beautifully in all conditions.
We like to do one thing at a time, test drive and then determine if something else is needed.
Sue
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Thanks for your replies Bob, Mike, and Sue. I appreciate you relating your experiences. We'll start with the alignment and proceed from there.
In April we did a cross country trip. So glad it was prior to the PC purchase. We've traveled 98,000 miles over the last 10 years in our previous motorhome and never experienced handling issues. Hopefully, we will soon feel confident in the PC and look forward to more travel.
Gail
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I agree that a good first step would be an alignment with your added weight included, the same as when on a trip with a full tank of fuel, a full tank of fresh water, a full tank of propane, gear, clothes, & food supplies properly stowed in their usual place,. It doesn't hurt to add some weight just behind the driver and passenger seat to represent you and your spouse in those seats while driving All this because weight and weight distribution influences the alignment.
But I do want to say....
If your goal is to spend as little as possible to get your rig "Acceptable", then do each upgrade incrementally. But the risk of doing so is that you'll get to a point and think you are good when in fact you are only good enough for most circumstances. It is under a rare condition when "good enough" is going to let you down and you could find yourself in a very dangerous, even life theatening situation. For example.
One trip we were heading out the east exit from Yosemite National Park. There is a long steep down-grade in double digit miles, down a winding canyon road. To avoid over-heating of our brakes, I would have the transmission in low gear and hit the brakes primarily when approaching a curve in the road. In one instance, I misjudged how fast we approached the curve. I ended up braking extremely hard while in the turn. The guard rail was just inches away with a steep drop on the other side of it. My wife was screaming for her life while the cabinet doors flown open with pots & pans & boxed food all air bourn. I attribute being alive because of all the suspension upgrades. Those upgrades kept our rig much more upright instead of leaning. The weight was better maintained, better distributed so all 6 tires were able stay more firmly on the road for better control through the turn along with better brake performance.
Then there are the daily subtle benefits that you'll appreciate.
If I were to buy "any" brand new 2015 PC, regardless of model, I would immediately upgrade the front & rear stabilizer bars, front steering stabilizer, and shock absorbers. If I were planning on towing of which we do, I would also install a rear trac bar.
I learned so much from our first motor home. We owned that rig for 24 years. The first 12 were cursed. I wished we did everything at first opportunity instead of 12 years in. Our first weekend get-away with our new PC at the time, had me afterward setting up an appointment with the shop that took care of our first rig. I was NOT going to mess around the second time. Do it once, do it right, and enjoy the rest in peace, comfort, and safety.
BTW, our alignment was done as part of the "package", done after all else was done. I had our rig weight-simulated as if n a trip. Our alignment was off by so much that the shop had to use offset bushings to get it right. The shop said that most class B+/Cs and E-series ambulances require offset bushings. The rigs are all so badly loaded and weight distribution so poor, that these kind of bushings are required.
(http://www.rebmw.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/suspension/fcab/e30e36_600.jpg)
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Maybe I am just lucky.
Our 2350 handled very well after doing only two things: proper inflation per the factory door post and front end alignment. Everything else is straight off the line from Ford. We live in an area of a lot of wind and it just is not a problem on our rig, even towing our fully loaded Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk. Like I say, maybe we are just lucky.
I don't expect a truck to drive like a BMW. What I expect is a comfortable, controllable, safe drive and I have that so I am (literally) a happy camper.
Paul
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Ron, As always I appreciate and take your advice seriously and assure you we are not looking for just "acceptable" . Our main concern is safety, all else comes next.
Paul, I am happy you were one of the lucky ones. Wish we could say the same but hope to be "Happy Travelers" after taking Cruiser to our trusted RV mechanic. Like you, we don't expect it to drive like a car or even as good as our previous RV . Actually, on normal roads it drives better than expected.
Thanks again to all for their input .
Gail
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Paul,
It is good to "think" BMW. You'll never get close regardless of the investment. But the closer you get, the better the safety, the motion-&-parked comfort, and driving pleasure you will have. I look at it this way. Spending an additional $2000-$3000 on an $80,000 to $90,000 motor home is just one more "option" to choose. I once encouraged Kermit to consider offering a suspension package option to his model line-up, but I never heard back from him. If you are mechanically inclined to purchase the parts at discount internet prices and install them yourself, you can reduce the investment to near 1/3 the shop price. Then once done, go get that alignment and you'll be set for good.
The handling of our PC resembles a mini-van or simple SUV. It's no BMW, but it's no typical motor home either. I would expect that the shorter the motor home, the more effective the improvements will be, due in-part from the short wheel base (distance between front and rear tires) and long rear over-hang (rear of the rear tires). The poor ratio between those two dimensions is quite influential. But even model 3100 will benefit.
Gail, have you tried THIS (http://forum.phoenixusarv.com/index.php/topic,2094.0.html) experiment?
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Not yet, Ron. Cruiser is parked in a secure storage facility. After our move on Thursday we will bring it over and do the test on our driveway.
Gail
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Drove 350 miles today on our first trip after having a front end alignment on our 2350. I'm posting here, as promised, not to hijack your thread Gail, but hopefully, some of this will help. I haven't driven any significant distance without towing our 4600lb Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk, so that may skew my observations.
On our first trip a few weeks ago, we noticed some tail wagging, rut tracking, and slight drift/wandering. The tail wagging and rut tracking were the biggest issues, but not horrible.
We had the front end aligned and I intended to take the next trip with no other adjustments, but Ron's comments made sense to me. I did not think the tail wag issue would be solved with just an alignment so we also had a SuperSteer Trac bar installed before departing.
Today we drove 350 miles which included two high passes in Colorado, gusty crosswinds, hail, snow, and even some nice blue sky with calm winds! Didn't see too much in the way of rutted pavement.
The tail wagging is almost completely gone! I'm certain this is a result of the trac bar. Since we didn't have much rutted pavement like our previous trip, it's hard to say if we would have noticed much difference today.
Now for the part that wasn't so great. For our front end alignment, we had our + caster adjusted to something close to 5.0 based on recommendations from other forums. This required installation of offset bushings like the ones that Ron posted.
Supposedly, according to the posts I read on the other forums, this would tighten the steering, reduce crosswind effects, reduce tail wag, and make the drive more relaxing!
For us, it was the opposite. Without me expressing my observations, I asked my wife what she thought after driving. Her impressions were the same as mine. We both thought the tail wagging had all but disappeared, but the front end appeared to have more steering play and more wander. I'm puzzled by this. One thing we did not do is load the coach as if we were departing on a trip, prior to having it aligned, as Ron suggested. Perhaps this affected the alignment enough to result in the drift/wander.
I've read the SuperSteer/Henderson education pages on Steering Freeplay, Road Wander, etc. Those articles mention a lot of potential culprits in the steering mechanism, most of which are the result of worn out parts. Our coach is pretty new, so I doubt it is due to worn steering parts.
The next step for us is to have the alignment reevaluated, with the coach loaded. Also, I'm considering the Safe-T-Plus steering control. As I understand it, the primary purpose is to return the steering to center in a variety of circumstances, but I've read a few posts elsewhere that claim it tightened up steering and reduced drift/wander.
Hope this helps you when you are evaluating your PC's handling! BTW, I found the education pages on the SuperSteer website to be very helpful!
Bob
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We are going through the grueling task of purchasing a motorhome. A lot of owners of various brands have handling concerns and upgrade the motorhome similar to what is discussed here. It seems to me these items should be standard with the manufacturer instead of an add-on. To pay $80,000-$110,000+ and still have to add $5-$10k to make it safe to drive is wrong. Must be a liability issue for motorhome manufactures. They build them to chasis spec and they are covered. Anything extra is customer problem.
Thanks for your candid comments. We have PE on our short list but it has dropped from the top spot to equal consideration with the Aspect and Sunseeker.
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starz2720000 I would test drive one before dropping your consideration of the PC. The other tread going here is now talking about the same thing but they are saying that they did not have to do any thing to the PC to be happy. Some of us have had several motorhomes while other only one or two and therefore expect different handling from our rigs. I for one found that I wanted to upgrade the shocks to Bilstein shocks on the last four motorhomes I have owned. That is just me liking the firmer ride than what the original shocks provide. Some folks want to add every thing they can that might want to improve the ride and handling while others don't feel the need to change a thing. I found that the PC is just about like every other motorhome I have owned when it come to ride, handling and steering. One motorhome will ride better, one will handling better and one will steer better that the other ones. I have had motorhomes from the pickup truck with a camper on the back, 21' to 28' class C and 28' & 35' class A motorhomes. You must remember that these things are a big box on a truck frame. Some times the wind will push you around, sometimes big trucks and buses will push you around, sometimes the road will bounce you around. If you can handle this and it will be the same for all motorhomes, you will be fine. You can find the same problems in cars and vans everyday but no one talks about them. Each one of us on here is different and want different things from our motorhomes, that is why they make so many upgrades to add to motorhomes. You make it, someone will buy it.
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Tom,
I modified my last comment. I did not mean to say I dropped PC, it just fell from my top ranked consideration. I will drive one along with an Aspect and Sunseeker. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Have a great day!
Ron
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This is our second PC so obviously we are impressed and satisfied. We only traded for a floor plan that we liked better: full one-room bath (no isle in the middle), both a sofa and a dinette, room for a recliner and lots of storage. We also wanted to avoid the extra weight and complexity more than one slide. We usually stay days even weeks at time, rarely ever boondock, so the 3100 has been perfect. No handling issues at all. I sometimes think a few folks want a close-to-car ride in a motorhome and get caught up the minutia and cost of making changes with ever diminishing returns.
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How does sleeping in twin beds work out? I am 6'3" and have a little problem with length.
Ron
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6' 3" will not work on the twin beds. I'm 6' and just fit. You'll need a bed in a slide-out, but plan on your feet hanging over. Even at 6', my feet hung over in a model 2900 (no longer made).
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Sarz272000, I agree with Tom - I would drive a PC before making a decision. I can see how reading my remarks and others might dissuade you from a PC, but that would be a mistake in my opinion! I love my 2350 and the company!!! In fact, we just set up camp in southern Utah, and I'm out the door to do some four-wheeling as soon as I finish this post!
I am admittedly new at driving a motorhome, but that doesn't mean my observations are not valid. I'm certainly not looking for car like handling, but I know I can improve upon the amount of road wander I'm observing when above 60mph or in 15-20mph crosswinds or greater. The information I've read on this, and other forums has been invaluable, and I'm only posting with the intent to help others that might be looking for similar information as well.
I've been driving in some of the most challenging areas of the country, so I want the handling of my coach to be as good as possible. I think the short wheelbase on the 2350, with a relatively long overhang, and the fact that I'm towing a very heavy vehicle, make a combination that is challenging. What might not be noticeable on longer wheelbase models, especially if they aren't towing a heavy vehicle, is quite possibly much more noticeable given my setup. The tail wag I mentioned virtually disappeared after installing a trac bar. I am super happy I had that installed! Again, those with longer wheelbase coaches or lighter toads, may not have ever noticed the tail wag I had.
I drove about 45 miles today with my TOAD disconnected and it was a piece of cake, handled like a dream. I was in some winding mountain roads so I didn't get to see if the road wander/drift was gone without my TOAD, but it was very easy driving in the mountainous conditions.
Lastly, I'll say that the amount of drift I have in the conditions I mentioned, is very manageable, but it does keep my attention. I know I can improve upon it and I appreciate those that have posted their experiences!