Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: skipper on October 14, 2013, 05:38:05 pm
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OK, it's taken a while to get my 58-62mph vibration issue diagnosed. To recap: The first try was to get all 6 tires balanced. The improvement was slim although the tire company told me all 6 tires were out of balance (cost $15/tire) I took it back to the tire company to see if this was the best they could do and took a run with a mechanic. He diagnosed it as a suspected driveline issue not the tires. The recommendation was to take it to Ford and try to get it fixed under warranty. If that didn't work, bring it back and they would locate the vibration with a sensor machine.
I finally got it into the Ford dealership and they drove it and rebalanced and indexed the tires and told me it was fixed (cost $0). I picked it up and drove it to the nearest highway and it rode smoother due to a little better balance job, but the vibration was still there. I drove back to the Ford dealership and complained and a service manager agreed to take a ride with me. Once I got the PC up to 60 mph, he heard/felt the vibration right away and he tried to locate it. He said it was worse behind the transmission. He asked me to leave it until he could look at it on a rack. They only have one truck rack and it was in use so it sat a few days.
Today he called and said it was as fixed as good as he could get it. The problem, according to him, is the driveline is not straight because the factory added coupler is off center by 1/2". The added coupler is about 1/2" off center towards the passenger side and this is causing my problem. I asked if he could just slide the coupler 1/2" towards the center of the vehicle and he said, no, the adjustment on this particular bracket is fore and aft, not sideways. I asked if he could grind the bracket holes out so the coupler could be slid to the center and he said no, there is only about 3/8" of metal on the edge of the existing hole and there is no room to grind. He thinks the only way to fix it properly is to cut the welded bracket off and then weld it back in the right place.
He attempted to fix the problem by shimming the coupler down. He tried 5 shims and it got best at 3 shims and then got much worse by 5 shims. He went back to 3 shims. He thinks it's about 50% better (Cost $0, thank you very, very much).
He also said an out of line driveline is consistent with the vibration ramping up and then ramping down as speed increases. If the shaft was out of balance, he said it would ramp up and up and keep getting worse as speed increased.
He doesn't have the equipment to fix it and recommended I take back to the factory if I can't live with it. Since I bought it used, I don't have a warranty and it's a 2500 mile roundtrip so that solution is out of the question. His second recommendation was to take it to someplace like camper's world and see if they could tackle it. He is going to send me pictures and if it shows the problem, I'll post them up here. I'll also contact Earl and see if he has any pearls of wisdom. Mark
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Here are the pictures the service manager sent me looking fore and aft. There does appear to be a definite cast to starboard.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/10278720894_5c841e4be9_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57267726@N04/10278720894/)
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/57267726@N04/10278720894/) by (http://www.flickr.com/people/57267726@N04/)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/10278720834_854b714020_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57267726@N04/10278720834/)
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/57267726@N04/10278720834/) by (http://www.flickr.com/people/57267726@N04/)
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Mark,
Sound like you are on the right track in getting to the root of the problem. Some time ago I ran across a Ford bulletin regarding driveline angles in modified Econoline cutaways used for RVs. It describes the problems that can be associated with improper driveline angles and the solutions. It is very technical but may be of some use as you go forward to try and resolve the issue.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/Q40.PDF
Bob
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Good Post,,, couple questions,,,, the bracket that is off 1/2 inch, you say factory ford or PC? I always assumed that PC took the 450, cut off the van body, except the front, added brackets for support items, genie, tanks, etc, and added to the frame to lengthen if needed... Do they actually move the bracket holding the drive shaft? I can not imagine why PC would move this,,, seems to me this is a Ford problem.
Second,,, since the shaft is not perfect, are you risking some type of drive shaft failure in one of the joints since you are putting stress on them? Even though you do not hear the vibration at lower speed, still stressing the shaft, brackets, joints etc I drive that speed 58to62 and know it would bother me,,,
good luck
sparky
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Sparky,
PC outsources the bodies to be lengthened or at least I think they do. When this body was lengthened a 4' driveshaft extension was added and a coupler was added to support the new shaft. As you can see in the first picture, it appears the new bracket was welded in off center. This bracket was added aftermarket so it's not a Ford problem. There might be something I and the service manager may not know. I sent an email to Earl and he has forwarded it to Kermit. Let's see if this was intentional or a mistake. Mark
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This might be the cause of our vibration issue also so I am glued to this topic. I'm not sure I can get a decent picture underneath to see if we have the same angle. I, too, thought Phoenix sent the chassis out to be extended but then Earl's walk through video seemed to say they do it themselves. I watched them putting the heat shield on during our factory tour but I did not see if they did or did not do the chassis extension themselves. Skipper, thanks for the excellent post.
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His second recommendation was to take it to someplace like camper's world and see if they could tackle it. He is going to send me pictures and if it shows the problem, I'll post them up here. I'll also contact Earl and see if he has any pearls of wisdom. Mark
I don't believe I would ever take a problem like this to Camping World. Lippert Industries in Elkhart does the chassis modifications for PC. They might work on it. Good luck!
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John, the vibration I am experiencing starts at about 58 and is worse at 60 to 62 and then it subsides by 65 mph. I can both hear it and feel it. I spoke with the previous owner and he never mentioned the vibration, so either it didn't bother him, he thought it was normal, or he never drove at these speeds.
The service manager said this vibration was consistent with an out of line driveline (ramp up and then down). He also said if the vibration starts and got worse as speed increased and never got better, it was most likely an out of balance driveline. He said you can often see an out of balance driveline if you put the truck on a rack and lift the tires and run it. You can see an obvious flutter.
I traded emails with Kermit and I'm awaiting his response as to whether he disagrees with the service manager's assessment (maybe all PC's drivelines are off center for a reason) or if he agrees. If he agrees, then what is the best fix? Mark
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Joni and I will be taking delivery of our 2552 at the end of next week, and amongst the list of things we will be having our RV techs and Ford techs take a look at is this driveline issue. We will surely post what we find. Will be nice to contribute for a change!
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Very interesting info.... I am also learning..... I did some research trying to look at different wheelbases in the 350/450's I'm also surprised that these frames are done like that,, your never too old to learn... I also realize they have been doing this procedure for years and know what they are doing.... How ever I don't have to be an engineer to know that if you cut a 10ft piece of steel in half add two feet in the middle you are going to get differences in the flex,vibration,etc,,,, and when you take two pieces that are connected to each other into a square and add two feet the same thing is going to happen,, I would love to see them do this procedure simply amazing to me..
I would assume when ford builds theses frames, they have a set up where when they do all this (putting the frame, cross members together) that the specs are very tight... Now you take a squared factory frame cut it in half, add new cross member, add extensions to drive shaft and other stuff, it is amazing to me... wonder how much square is off,,, wonder if this could be a major issue in alignment in our units or could it just be the weight,,, anyway very interesting
Hopefully you guys will get an answer and be able to solve the problem,,,, still would like to know if this could result in drive shaft failure since there is more stress on the u joints, brackets from excessive vibration
sparky
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I wonder how many class C and class B+ that use a wheel base greater than 158 inches? Thinking about how many have been made in the last 30 years? Now I would think every now and then one might be welded incorrectly but that most of them would be corect. I would not worry about them adding the extended frame to the orignal fame. Life is too short to worry about everything. pyho
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Good point Tom... I'm just a curious (noisy) person haha,,, I think I understand they have been doing this a long time and matter of fact I think it is really neat,, but I would not want to be one of the guys stuck with a problem and no matter what when you do this 100's and 1000's of times boo boos happen,,,
sparky
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I agree that the industry has nailed down the frame extension process so I would get whatever floor plan I wanted, stretched frame or not.
But still there is a little peace of mind that our 2350 has an unmodified 158" wheel base. It's nice to know that all parts are stock/generic. For example, if I needed a parking brake cable, a brake line, a fuel line, drive shaft, whatever, on a trip, I know the shop in No-Where USA can get a Ford stock part right away, rather than fabricating something to get me back on the road.
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You are right about having all standard parts is nice, but how often do you have a problem with thses parts? If I have a problem with any of my parts, I will call Carol at the factory and ask her to overnight them. No worries here. ;)
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Warning: long post. Read last paragraph if you are in a hurry.
Captain's log: Stardate 10/22/13. Work continues on fixing the vibration. I drove the RV home after the Ford dealership diagnosed an out of line drive system and they attempted a repair by shimming the 2nd coupler 3 shims towards the ground. I couldn't feel any improvement, but wasn't any worse.
I contacted Earl and sent him the thoughts of the Ford folks and pictures of the driveline taken by the Ford service manager. Earl replied stating he forwarded my email to Kermit. Kermit emailed me a couple of days later and said he couldn't find me in the warranty system. I emailed back and said I wasn't filing a warranty claim and it was known to me before I purchased the rv that the warranty didn't transfer. I was simply looking for information on whether the Ford service manager was right and how to fix my rv.
Kermit called me 2 days later and said he disagreed with the service manager. The driveline is offset by design towards the passenger side because the engine is offset towards the passenger side and so is the rear axle. Kermit thought the problem was likely an unbalanced driveshaft and he suspected the rear driveshaft because that is where he had experienced problems in the past. According to Kermit, before the chassis is extended, the driveshaft may not be "in spec" but it's not a problem until the chassis is extended. Once extended, little problems are magnified. He said the company doing the extension has years of experience and has their part of the extension perfected. They rarely make mistakes. The extender uses the Ford driveshafts and add one for the length of the extended chassis. He recommended finding a driveline balancing company and see if they could find the problem and suggest they start with the rear shaft.
I located a driveline balancing company in the next town and took the rv to him yesterday. The owner's credentials are 17 yrs of driveline experience working for Ford dealerships in the area. He claims to be a Ford's master driveline technician, the highest level that Ford certifies. He seems to know his stuff. He hooked up his analysis equipment and found a driveshaft vibration. However, he doesn't know which shaft is out of balance. The shaft coming out of the tranny is an aftermarket shaft and the rest of the line is Ford (actually Spicer, a supplier to Ford).
He asked if it was possible the driveline was under warranty by PC or Ford. I know PC won't cover it, but I called the Ford guy and asked him. His response was maybe. His concern about a warranty claim was Ford would want to know if the driveline was balanced as a whole or by its individual parts and was the extender certified by Ford to be covered under the Ford family umbrella. The deal about balancing by part is that Ford balances the entire unit and the splines must match exactly or you can get an out of balance driveline. Care must be taken to line everything up just the way Ford tested it or Ford wouldn't warrant it. And even if it is out of balance, Ford may balk paying a claim anyway if the extender isn't certified, Ford doesn't pull the shaft out and verify it, blah blah blah. He said he sees a lot of finger pointing between Ford and RV manufacturers and the customer is usually the one that ends up paying. This is the fourth time I've had it in a shop for fixing and I'm growing weary. So I called the driveline guy back and said just fix it.
I asked him how he was going to approach balancing the system. This is my understanding: He will pull the 3 section shaft and spin each part and correct any balance issue with the 3 shafts. Then he will connect the first two and balance them together (messing with spline alignment) and get it as good as he can noting any 'high' spot. Then he will do the same on the rear two noting any 'low' spot. Finally he will put it back together with the high spot on the 1 and 2 matching the low spot on 2 and 3. Then he will test drive it and it should be fixed. I can only hope! Sorry for the very long post. Mark
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Very good post,, and ouch on getting it fixed. I sort of understand (not really) why the warranty does not extend to an owner taking over a vehicle,, I think PC should step up here, or the company that did the extension,, not sure about the contract you had with previous owner and realize when you buy unit from someone it is normal to be AS IS,,, but they had to know about this,,, Kudo's to you for being up front regarding this matter
sparky
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Kudo's to you for being up front regarding this matter
I agree with sparky. Having posts like this are immensely helpful to anyone else having the same troubles, now or in the future.
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Update: From annoying to downright bad. I took the PC in on Monday and told the mechanic I needed it back for a weekend trip by Thursday. No problem. Well, nothing is e z. On Wed. afternoon I called and he said he was done but it needed some tweaking. I asked if he could get the tweaking done by Thursday noon and he said that would be plenty of time. I called Thursday at noon and he said he wasn't finished but come and get it. Not finished, why? Well, it seems this is an unruly beast that doesn't conform to normal driveline criteria. The Ford driveline was designed to angle down from the transmission and up from the axle. This driveline angles down, then up, and then down. He told me to take it on my trip and he would resume work next week. He had calls into his folks to find a fix and he would have the answers next week.
We took the PC on a 280 mile RT and it was quite a bit worse than when I took it in. Markedly worse. The vibration now starts at 35mph and gets terrible at 45 and then 'drones' out at 55 and then from there is about the same as it was before.
Here is what he did: The mechanic balanced each shaft and as Kermit thought, the back Ford shaft was the worst, but I noticed new weights welded on all three shafts when I crawled under there. Then he balanced the first two shafts together and the rear two shafts together. They were balanced at 2250 rpm which is my 'sweet spot' of 62 mph where I get decent (a relative term) gas mileage and still eventually get to where I'm going. He replaced the u joints with 'lifetime' lubrication (without asking me. Hmmm.) claiming otherwise the bearings would never get lubricated due to oversight. He counterpoised the high spots with the low spots on the front and rear to smooth out the driveline. He measured the angles at each coupler and next used shims to tweak the smoothest (or in my case the least roughest) rotation.
The offset angle the Ford guy warned me about is normal according to this guy because Ford offsets the driveline in the event of a rear end crash that reached the axle, the driveline will push out at this point preventing transmission and engine damage. However, this really isn't an issue in an RV due to the overhang.
Next step: The mechanic is ordering an extension for his balancing machine so he can put the entire shaft (I think he said 118") on it and spin the whole thing. He will consult with driveline suppliers and give them the lengths/angles and get their input. I called Kermit (he is in Atlanta?) to get his input. The mechanic is leaning towards an e z but expensive fix of replacing the rear 2 shafts with a single piece 5" aluminum shaft (The stock is 3" steel [or did he say 3 1/2"?] which he thinks is marginal for the load). With two pieces, the angles will be 'normal' and you remove a variable (coupler) from the mix. Mark
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Ouch and double ouch,, what a pain in the tushie,, at least the Ford guy seems to be helping (?) and Kermit also,, amazing how one little thing can cause such a problem
keep us posted
sparky
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skipper,
I am sorry to read that your saga continues. At least a resolution is at hand.
Reading through your post has me thinking about the joints on my E350. Do I have grease fittings there? I need to inspect them. If I have only caps, I'll install fittings, and then grease as I have done up front with my ball joints and steering linkage. Our rig now has near 22,000 miles.
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skipper,
I am sorry to read that your saga continues. At least a resolution is at hand.
Reading through your post has me thinking about the joints on my E350. Do I have grease fittings there? I need to inspect them. If I have only caps, I'll install fittings, and then grease as I have done up front with my ball joints and steering linkage. Our rig now has near 22,000 miles.
Ron,
On my 2010 2551, I have only one greaseable u-joint. It is the front u-joint on the short aftermarket driveshaft added by the shop that lengthened the frame. The other three are sealed u-joints from Ford. The zirk fitting is hard to see, it is in the center of the body and the grease is forced out to all four caps, some greaseable u-joints have a zirk fitting on one of the end caps and the grease finds it's way through the body to the other three caps.
You said that your rig has not been lengthened, so you likely have the Ford sealed u-joints and I don't believe you can add zirks to the sealed ones.
Bob
Skipper,
If your 2013 2552 has the same three Ford sealed u-joints and one greaseable aftermarket u-joint, did the mechanic only replace the one u-joint so that all four are now sealed? I suppose it is possible that Ford has changed to geaseable u-joints and he changed them all?
I know that geaseable vs sealed u-joints is not important to you at this time as you struggle through the vibration issue, I was just scratching my head about it. I hope they get the vibration fixed, it must be very frustrating to not be able to sit back and just enjoy the ride, I know it would bug the heck out of me and be the focus of my attention.
Bob
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Captain's Log, Stardate 11/15. I took the PC back to the driveline shop Monday after the owner bought some new parts to extend his balancing analyzer so it would hold the entire driveline. He called me yesterday and said it was much improved, come and get it. I did. The damage was about $225. On the way home, I drove it from speeds of 1 mph to 72 mph and all the vibration and noise is gone. "Much improved" was an understatement. It's fixed. Hurray. It took 7 trips to various shops, but it's now fixed and I can find something else to complain about! For those on Facebook, do a search for Panhandle Driveline and you can see a video of the PC shaft on his machine spinning quite fast. Oh, the fix was a rebalance job after the first rebalance job (and after Ford's original balance job). He found a high spot at the second joint he couldn't see by balancing 2 shafts at a time. He had to put all three on the machine. Then he tweaked the angles by putting 2, 1 degree shims after the transmission and 3 shims before the axle. I'm pleased and think for all the time the mechanic spent on it, I got out with good work a very fair price. Mark
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Mark, PLEASE send us the name and location of your mechanic. We are dawdling our way through Georgia but would happily reroute to wherever this guy is if he can fix our vibration noise. Thank you so much for posting all this information. Holly and John
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I just figured out Panhandle Driveline IS the name of the shop and I found the address on the internet. Is there someone in particular you dealt with? We'll be visiting them before too long. I don't know if our vibration noise is the same as yours but it sounds similar enough and our rigs came out about the same time so the chance of a like problem seems good. It would be AWESOME if they can fix this.
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Mark,
Great news, now you can enjoy the ride and think about something else. Good that you gave kudos to the shop for getting it fixed, they went the extra mile to do it by acquiring more equipment for the long drive shaft. Sounds like 2 Frazzled is heading there, waiting to hear his experience.
Bob
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skipper,
I gave you a helpful as I feel that others with vibration issues would greatly benefit from your experience and resolution.
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Holly & John, Panhandle Driveline owned/operated by William. He answers the phone unless he's working on a job. His shop is fairly new and I don't think he is very busy right now. Since you are coming from out of town, you should talk to him for scheduling to get in and out asap. The shop located in Milton, FL about 3 miles north of I10 inside a mini storage unit. He is set up for cars/pickups and doesn't have a way to lift RV's so he will either have to work under your PC or send it 'up the road' to an automotive shop to have the driveline dropped. He chose to crawl under mine and do it himself. I would guess that he will want to tweak the angles so he will likely want to remove/install the driveline himself.
There is not much going on in Milton, but if you are here, you should consider a day or two at either Ft. Pickens national seashore campground or further east towards Grayton Beach in Santa Rosa. I have never stayed at either so I can't comment on the campgrounds themselves, but we used to boat to Ft. Pickens frequently. Pickens has been a fort since colonial times up through WWII as well as a federal prison (housed Geronimo for a time). The Santa Rosa area includes Seaside where the Truman Show was filmed. Both have beautiful beaches, but the beautiful (and more wealthy) people spend their time on the Santa Rosa beaches. Seaside is a quaint little town that has a Mayberry feel where everything is perfect (hence where the Truman Show was filmed), but it comes with a hefty price tag. Maybe you should visit both.
Ron, thanks for the 'like'. I can't begin to tell you how much I have benefited from your tips, suggestions, and you sharing information. I'm happy to make a small contribution. My next project is sound dampening. Mark
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Update - We FINALLY made it to Milton, Florida and took the PC to Panhandle Driveline. William took it for a test drive and said - "not the driveline". He had a gizmo to measure the frequency of the vibration and said the driveline has an rrr-rrr-rrr when it vibrates while ours is a steady rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. He thinks it might be wind. He worked for Ford for 16 years and did a lot of noise diagnosis before and after he became the service manager. Then he had his own transmission company and now he has the driveline company. What all that means is he knows Ford noises. He showed us a few places to start trying to restrict movement of things in the engine compartment and on the Phoenix to see if we can silence the sound. After all that the charge was zero. We tried to compensate him but he wouldn't take payment. He gave us a smile, a handshake and wished us luck in our travels. WOW - we are so not used to that.
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Pretty amazing that the same model and virtually the same rig can have such different 'personalities'. Your vibration problem sounds a bit less extreme in terms of mechanical issues compared to Skipper, but probably just as frustrating. Hard to find a solution to a wind problem when you're tooling down the road at 65. I mean, what could it possibly be? Ford radio antenna, Winegard antenna, mud flaps....or the way the wind flows around a rigid object like the side view mirrors or generator exhaust pipe?? If you want to rent our dog, Cooper, he barks and points to any new strange sound....just let us know. In any case, I hope you keep us updated!
- Mike
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It went "Zip" when it moved
And "Bop" when it stopped
And "Whirrr" when it stood still
I never knew just what it was and I guess I never will
;)
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If you want to rent our dog, Cooper, he barks and points to any new strange sound....just let us know. - Mike
Mike, we may take you up on that when we get out your way. We'll even spring for the Doggles so he can stick his head out the window to help pin it down.
Holly
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It went "Zip" when it moved
And "Bop" when it stopped
And "Whirrr" when it stood still
I never knew just what it was and I guess I never will
;)
LOVE IT!!! (exactly)