Cruisers Forum
Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ron Dittmer on September 06, 2013, 05:57:55 pm
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We just completed our four week August trip with our 2007 2350. It now has over 23,000 miles. During the trip, the rig has developed a new distinct and abrupt banging noise when driven. I have narrowed it down to the area above the windshield. It is quite a bang from vibration of which I am able to quiet completely when opening the cabinet above me the driver, grab the cabinet, and hang on it while driving.
Once home, I removed everything from the motor home that is not nailed down, drove the motor home to work, and the noise continued in the same manner. I ruled out the TV because the sound is not coming from that area at all. I'll be dropping the head liner because the distinct sound seems to be right in the area of the interior cab spot lights. I have also noted that there are wires laying on the headliner slapping it on road bumps, but they are nothing compared to the distinct and irritating banging.
One more thing. As part of my investigation while driving down the highway, I rolled down the driver window, my wife doing the same on the passenger side. We stuck out our hands and placed a finger between the aero-cap gasket and the Ford chassis roof. In the rounded corner (very easy to reach), there is a whole lot of movement between the aero-cap and roof, while being driven. A bumpy road amplifies the condition, but not dramatically. I really don't know what to make of that. It might be normal or it might be excessive.
Has anyone experienced such banging and found the cause?
I also kindly ask you feel between the gasket and Ford roof (while driving) and report back as to your experience with that.
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Ron,
We are two weeks into our five week trip around the southwest, we are in Santa Fe for a few more days but I will check the movement between the cap and roof when we hit the road. Our 2551 has 24,000 miles on it and I have not heard the noise you describe. Could something have come loose behind the TV and is bouncing around?
Bob
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I'd bet a little money a few of the sheet metal screws that bind the cap to the cab have stripped or broken. If so, recommend replacing the screws with stainless machine screws and Nylock nuts.
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Bob/Ron
Ron I had posted earlier about a small leak on our unit while driving at the cap area, , you have probably diagnose my problem it leaks when raining and were driving.. I caulked once,,, leak is now smaller
Also is the noise all the time or only when you hit a rough patch, since you described a banging I'm assuming when you hit some rough patch on the road?? Something loose,,,, did you check those two outlet boxes, we have two, pass side cabinet, IF the back of them came loose, hitting that cap would be noisy,,, we also have those courtesy lights about the mirror, same thing,,. only thing I can think of,,,, keep us posted which I know you will
Bob the screws you are talking about are they visible? I replace nearly every screw on the outside of my unit with stainless when I first got it back in Jan. Lots of rust and corrosion on the one I replaced.
sparky
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Ron, on my 2010 2350, the cap started making a rattling noise. By the time I got from AZ to the factory, it had become a VERY loud noise. They took out the cabinets and put in additional screws in the cap/cab. It took them about 4 hours and many more screws/test drives before the rattle stopped. Hope that's not your problem, because it was quite a job getting it fixed.
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First of all, thanks for all the replies.
What I refer to as "Banging" could actually be a very loud single "Creak". It does not have to be a very rough road to make the noise, though some amount of rough ride is required to create the noise.
I had it in the back of my mind that I might have to remove the front cabinets to get to the mounting screws that hold the B+ cap to the roof. If I go there, as suggested I would replace all screws with stainless bolts with nylon locking nuts and stainless fendor washers, and add more of them spaced 2 or 3 inches apart to resemble rivots on a school bus. If I can do so without being evasive, I would even add a thin rubber gasket to close any gaps and reduce noise. Something like a continuous strip of bicycle tire inner tube material.
One more thing I observed which could be influential. My head liner goes 8 to 10" rearward to the decorative padding under the TV. That headliner and padding all moves together in unison, up and down, under rough road conditions. There is a significant amount of vertical flexing going on there. I don't know if this has always been so, or something that has developed over time.
I fear in the end, I will be disassembling more than I care to. If I do, I will over-kill any reinforcement so I never think about this one again.
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Yuck,,, do not like the sound of a creak,, rather would like to hear a banging sound,,, Lmichael advised he had to go get his cap reset,, was it brand new??? Ron you have been on the forum a lot longer than me,,,, I think I just about read every post ,, do not remember seeing this problem before,,,,, I have fingers crossed that you find something else. Know you will keep us posted good luck
sparky
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Yes, my 2350 was only a few months old when the noise started. The noise was actually a creaking noise--the rubbing of the cap against the metal cab. THe repair job lasted the next 2 years I had the PC, so they did a good job fixing it.
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lmichael
tks for letting us know,,, goes back to Brand New unit and getting the bugs out,,, someone had a bad day or ?? when they attached your cap on the 2350 ,,,, I'm just hoping that Ron's problem is not the same,,, hopefully will hear from some othet owners if they had this problem. He does such a good job, I know he will get it figured out and let us know
sparky
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I'll do what is needed to get our rig right. I am known to be quite handy so I am comfortable digging into my bang or creak or whatever it is. I've learned over the years that anything that will require my time to this capacity, some amount of over-kill in the repair process is most often the better choice.
We got back from our 4 week trip last Monday on Labor Day. The following day I started 12 hour work days, 6 days a week again. Our PC is outside getting cleaned by God and his creation. Live bugs are eating the collection of smashed ones. I do hope to clean the rig today and maybe have some time to dig into the banging/creaking. Who knows, I might get lucky and identify the culprit right away when pulling down the headliner. I'll keep you updated with pictures where applicable.
I really hope to hear from you all in regards to the movement while driving, felt between the B+ cap gasket and Ford roof. It would help to know up front if I have a normal or abnormal situation there. The movement we have is felt both on the driver and passenger side so if we have a condition, it is uniform in that way.
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We just returned from a trip to Wisconsin and noticed that starting in the morning we had a "creaking" noise above the driver that sounded like it was in the front compartment next to the TV. After several miles it would quit. This went on for the whole return trip. We removed the books we store in the compartment, but it had no effect. At first I thought it was the satellite antenna that was moving until it locked itself, but it could have been expansion/contraction of the roof cap on the chassis. Since returning home it seems to have quit, but I'll keep checking to see if it returns especially in cooler weather.
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Way back i posted in regards to my ex-2551 having a very large rattle right over the drivers seat and when I took the headliner down I found a 2 inch wide strip about 18" long of roof cut away steel that was attached on one end that was dangling enough that over a rough bump it would hit hard on what was left of the cut away roof below. It was metal on metal and made a racket. Perhaps over time you have something similar and and it is just now starting to hit what is below? I am sure you have all seen these questionares as to what you would want in the perfect RV....there is no question in my mind that I would want a coach that does not have rattles and squeaks! Right now on my 2012 I am hearing huge squeaks coming from the drivers side rear spring pack. I have sprayed them with everyhitng and i can not stop the squek that is very loud in the coach. Just like a front end alighnment issues I am now getting the run around from all my local Ford dealers that they can not look at the issue becasue their lifts are not large enough to get the rig up in the air. I now have toicall Ford and see if they will OK and will pay for taking the rig to a spring shop.....what a pain, Ford sells these chassis and can not service them, atleast not here in NH!
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Way back i posted in regards to my ex-2551 having a very large rattle right over the drivers seat and when I took the headliner down I found a 2 inch wide strip about 18" long of roof cut away steel that was attached on one end that was dangling enough that over a rough bump it would hit hard on what was left of the cut away roof below. It was metal on metal and made a racket. Perhaps over time you have something similar and and it is just now starting to hit what is below?
Thanks for sharing that. I'll be on the look-out.
Nearly every B+/C motor home manufacture cuts the roof of the chassis, either for easier access in a C or opening up the interior in a B+. I always considered that risky but it is so commonly practiced.
For reference, here is a picture taken in the PC factory. I pulled it from the 2007 slideshow presentation on PC assembly. I don't see how metal-to-metal could be banging unless the factory added some metal.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6173/6205758603_595094aa37_b.jpg)
Yesterday was my first chance in doing something after our trip, so I washed the exterior and cleaned out my waste plumbing. It took all day. I just couldn't work inside until the 20,000 bugs and crud was gone. If I get into that B+ gasket, I want it to be clean.
Anyone yet perform that test in driving their rig and feel for gasket-to-roof movement?
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Yes, Ron. I've done it many times. Ours makes no noise and has very little movement between the cap & steel roof joint.
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The " long sliver" of left over cut roof metal was actually hitting the front cross member that your photo shows so very well. It was like a little diving board! Best of luck getting yours torn apart and you wil have to tear apart for my bet is the front cap has broken loose from being afixed to the cutaway and is really hitting hard on bumps.
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I understand now and know what to look for. If that's all it is, maybe I can wedge in an old rubber computer mouse pad, keeping it in place with carpet tape in there and be done with it. Thanks a bunch ragoodsp!
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good pic Ron,,,, I'm in storage, but might go out next week will drive around if I do..... Ok I can see the gutter rail where the cap is going to be set,,, want they have to fix some support at the cut area and where the liner and shelving goes? I can imagine the cap being placed on the cab, liner in place maybe some caulking, then screwing it down like some of the guys have mentioned. Wonder how hard to take the bottom of the two cabinets or Tv cabinet out? Maybe you could see the screw line where they attached the cap. Hate for you have to take out that headliner ouch what a job,,,,,, Might want to call the PC factory get some suggestions... good luck and be carful around that metal edge
sparky
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I feel very comfortable dropping the headliner as long as I can leave the rearward end of it attached. I hope to drop the front and I might be able to swing it around 180 degrees rearward to expose the original sheet metal and all. I'll have Irene drive while I look, listen, and feel around. And yes I will be careful with that jagged sheet metal.
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I hope that's it don't forget pictures in case I have to do this (fingers crossed haha) or someone else
sparky
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Anyone yet perform that test in driving their rig and feel for gasket-to-roof movement?
Ron,
Reporting on my test drive today from Taos to Chama, road was rough enough in places to give a good test. I put my fingers between the cap and cab roof along the side and as far forward as I could reach. I didn't feel any measurable relative motion between the two surfaces, if I really concentrated I thought I was detecting some movement but it was so small it was probably my imagination.
If you are detecting significant relative movement, then that sounds like the problem - loose screws popping with movement. Keep us posted on what you find.
Bob
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Thanks Bob for reporting in with that data. I think it is best I go "deep" regardless of where the noise is coming from. I'll plan on adding many more and better fasteners as perviously covered.
If only I could work 40 hour weeks to have the time to get into it.
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Before I start digging into this, I thought I'd give Kermit a call and see if he had any advise for me. So I got to talking with him on the phone today and glad I did.
First of all, Kermit really wanted me to drive the rig there, but a three hour drive one way meant an all day ordeal and a day off work, neither which I can afford to do right now. So we discussed my situation over the phone of which he had some very good pointers for me.
It was interesting to learn that Phoenix had not seen any B+ caps separate from the Ford roof since the earliest model years 1999-2000 of which a change in their production process had addressed that. So he wonders if my cap is simply flexing, not separating. He suggested I stand outside and "palm" the B+ cap upward to see if I can actually lift it up. If something failed, the B+ cap should lift up.
Kermit also mentioned that if there was a failure, I should be getting water dripping down from the headliner when driving in the rain. Since I do not have water dripping, he thinks I might be okay. But check for separation to be sure.
Kermit also mentioned the decorative round bead between the B+ cap and roof is only decorative. It has a 1" tab that secures it but it does not seal out rain water. There is another much better gasket sandwiched in between cap and roof.
As far as the banging is concerned, Kermit had a a few other customers complain about the same thing. As ragoodsp mentioned, the Ford metal roof is flopping around. Kermit's fix is simple and easy. He said they screw in a self tapping 3" long screw into the floor of each glass door side cabinet to draw the metal roof upward to secure it.
This weekend I'll be following Kermit's advice and see what I find and resolve. Hopefully my issues are minor with fast easy fixes. If not, I'll either dig deeper myself or I may give in and drive over to the factory for the day. I'll report back as to my findings.
I've spoken to Kermit but just a few times via phone and really enjoy talking "PCs" with him. I greatly appreciate his interest in my troubles and his desire to resolve them for me. My rig is six years old yet I am treated like a new-bee owner.
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You're right, Ron--as we've said over and over on this forum, the PC after sale service is almost beyond belief. When I drove into the factory unannounced with the noise in my 2350 cap, they immediately started working on finding the problem and fixing it. It took several hours and 2 people working non-stop until they did get it fixed. When I tell people about this experience, they're amazed I didn't have to make an appointment and wait several days to get it fixed.
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Good News For Me.
I finally had some time to apply the advise from Kermit (and one of you) and it solved my banging. Last night, inside each front cabinet, I screwed 3 flat head screws through the cabinet floor into the original Ford steel roof and tightened them as snug as the cabinet floors would allow with only a little dimple/distortion. While inside the cabinets, I tightened every screw I could find. Some I was able to make more snug.
I drove our PC to work this morning and the banging is gone. At lunch I'll be driving the rig to the IL-EPA smog test station.
Since I questioned my cap-to-roof interconnetion, I followed Kermit's advise and palmed the B+ cap upward. There was "Zero" effect, no movement at all so I conclude my cap is mounted on good. That vibration movement I feel in between cap and roof while driving, I will consider normal. Kermit also said that if my cap was loose, rain water would be dripping from the headliner while driving in a rain storm, and that has never happened.
So I think all is well, done with this thread. Now it's off to looking into some other noises in back. I think my microwave oven could use some looking into, maybe pulling it out and adding some adhesive back pads to minimize and dampen any movement and/or rubbing. I also need to get to my converted 5-to-3 drawer galley cabinet, installing push button latches, the kind used on cabinet doors in other brand motor homes. The 5 magnets per drawer didn't keep them closed during the worst of circumstances.
Thanks again all for your insights & experience related to my banging.....And Thank You Kermit!
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Hey Ron,
How about a photo showing where you installed the screws?
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Ron I am glad you fixed the problem without having to terrorize the cab. Kermit is so helpfull. How many other companies do you know where the owner is so helpfull? Not many I bet.
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Hey Ron, How about a photo showing where you installed the screws?
I can do that!
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Kermit is so helpfull. How many other companies do you know where the owner is so helpfull? Not many I bet.
In Total Agreement Tom!
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The Tools I Used.
The flat head screws are 1.5" long
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/9974557695_df08014182_c.jpg)
This done inside both cabinets. The screws are 3" in from the cabinet opening.
Today I added a 4th screw more forward (seen in the pic) to help anchor the front corners of the cabinetry better, stabilizing the TV better too.
I really don't know if the cabinets are keeping the Ford roof from banging, or the tight connection to the Ford roof helps stabilize the cabinetry to prevent the banging. Either way the banging is gone and the cabinets and TV don't bounce nearly as much on bumps as they did prior.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/9974698933_bffde2409a_c.jpg)
Irene drove the PC on a local bumpy road while I watched and listened. During the test drive, I learned our microwave was making noises because the 6 perimeter mounting screws had come loose. I tightened them up and the microwave got very quiet. Now I hear the heat shield under the motor home making noise, but I don't have any desire to do something about that one.....at least not yet. :)
Things have come a long way in just a few hours work. I am very happy. Now on to my drawer latches.
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That's great, Ron. Another helpful for you..................at my pleasure.
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Ron, In your picture your screws appear to be flat head bolts. Are they what you used (and how) or are they just representative of the screws? Great post!
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good post ron,,
questions
I looked at the pic you have unfinished cab, can visualize where the cabinets above pass/driver are and how the screws help... did the bottom of the cabinets have a lining or were they bare?
On your oven rattle if it comes back don't forget to look at where I replaced part of the inside mounting boards with some padding on my replacement project.
I have already put on my to do list the palm test on the cap haha... already mentioned I have small leak on driver side when driving,, fingers crossed but if a problem maybe the screws and will help tighten it down
good job
sparky
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Ron, In your picture your screws appear to be flat head bolts. Are they what you used (and how) or are they just representative of the screws? Great post!
I used the screws pictured. I suppose they are small bolts. You can spin nuts on them. I call them bolts when the screw has a hex head.
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I looked at the pic you have unfinished cab, can visualize where the cabinets above pass/driver are and how the screws help... did the bottom of the cabinets have a lining or were they bare?
On your oven rattle if it comes back don't forget to look at where I replaced part of the inside mounting boards with some padding on my replacement project.
sparky
My cabinets are finished inside. A year or so after we bought our PC, I added rubber shelf liner to the insides for noise and protection, but some prior abrasion occurred, especially in the other cabinet. I am ashamed to take a picture of that one. I was thinking of trying a little cherry stain there.
I thought of your idea with my microwave rattle, but didn't have to go there after tightening the six front facing perimeter screws. If it quickly returns, I'll be applying your padding idea. Thanks for that tip.
I always wondered how PC-USA attached the cabinets inside the B+ cap area. I still don't know how it was done. My 4 per side screws (bolts :) ) seem to have achored them down much better. I only wished the cabinet floor was thicker wood. I think it's just 1/4" finished plywood so there is still some flexing action. Just not nearly as much..
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That's great, Ron. Another helpful for you..................at my pleasure.
Thanks Bob :)
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Ron,
How did you know where the roof sheet metal was? Is it cut to be close to the front of the cabinet?
Bob
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bob
Look at the pic on page 1, I think you can pretty well ballpark where the door post is in alignment with the cap... that pic Ron showed us really helps... would bet that all the vans are cut pretty close to the same no matter what model
sparky
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Ron,
How did you know where the roof sheet metal was? Is it cut to be close to the front of the cabinet?
Bob
Good question Bob. It was just a guess on my part. That is why I picked a dimension of 3" and drilled a pilot hole, placed a 2" finish nail down it to make sure metal roof material was there. Maybe I could have gotton by with 2" from the cabinet opening, but I wanted to be sure I hit metal every time, and wasn't drilling holes near a metal edge. I wanted to get into the "beef" of the metal roof for better anchoring.
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Ron,
How did you know where the roof sheet metal was? Is it cut to be close to the front of the cabinet?
Bob
Good question Bob. It was just a guess on my part. That is why I picked a dimension of 3" and drilled a pilot hole, placed a 2" finish nail down it to make sure metal roof material was there. Maybe I could have gotton by with 2" from the cabinet opening, but I wanted to be sure I hit metal every time, and wasn't drilling holes near a metal edge. I wanted to get into the "beef" of the metal roof for better anchoring.
Sounds like a good approach, I will go with 3" if and when my PC starts banging. 2o2